hburgnews.com

Comment from Emmy
Time: August 11, 2008, 1:41 pm

I noticed those this morning and it just made me mad. I’m not looking forward to seeing all those laying around on the ground.

Comment from Emmy
Time: August 11, 2008, 1:44 pm

Oh and for what its worth, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with “marketing” a church so to speak. When I was looking for a church I was hesitant to just walk in to one I knew nothing about. Maybe that says something about me, I don’t know. I tend to think word of mouth works best, but I know my church is looking for ways to let people know about our church, especially college students. If my opinion is ever asked, I’ll be sure to steer them away from this idea should it come up.

Comment from Brian M
Time: August 11, 2008, 1:51 pm

It was cool to see some people on the video that I recognized, several good friends actually. And you’ve got to agree that the song is pretty darn catchy. I’m humming it in my head…

Oh no. Now it’s stuck there. Grrr…

Comment from mikekeane
Time: August 11, 2008, 3:07 pm

Does it take modern marketing techniques for us to finally equate churches to viruses?

Comment from mikekeane
Time: August 11, 2008, 3:18 pm

This church can’t use their own parishioners in their add they need to go out and find cool young people to bolster their appeal. I would be irate if I found myself in an add like this. I seriously doubt the person behind the camera was up front about his/her purpose.

Aletheia (ἀλήθεια) is the Greek word for “truth”, and like the English word implies sincerity as well as factuality or reality. The literal meaning of the word ἀ–λήθεια is, “the state of not being hidden; the state of being evident”.

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 11, 2008, 4:01 pm

Does anyone know *for sure* that they didn’t get permission to put up the signs/flyers, and that the people in the video are no members?

If so, yeah, I do find that not only odd, but ethically questionable.

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 11, 2008, 4:06 pm

Seeing the video, I’m kind of torn.

It’s not like they were in any way portrayed as church members, or promoting the church. They were just answering the question about what the shape looks like to them. And for that I think you wouldn’t necessarily use your members - you’d ask the public at large.

It’s a fine line, to be sure. I will say, I’m fairly certain one of the people I saw in there is an atheist (if they’re who I thought they were) and I’m not sure they’d be ok with being used in a video to advertise a church.

I guess it comes down to whether or not the people were told why they were being filmed and gave their permission to use the footage for those purposes.

If not, yeah, that’s kind of shady.

Comment from Emmy
Time: August 11, 2008, 4:14 pm

I don’t think its legal to put up flyers on signs and such. I’m sure someone can tell me if that’s in fact true.

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 11, 2008, 4:18 pm

Doesn’t it depend on where? I mean, political signs get staked out all over the place during election seasons.

I’ve never really had occasions to look into the technicalities, so hopefully someone in the know can set the record straight, but I always thought there were channels you could go through to get permission for such things.

But I agree with you, whether it’s not allowed period, or they just didn’t go through the proper channels, it was the wrong thing to do, and especially for a church, which should go above and beyond in upholding the law.

Comment from finnegan
Time: August 11, 2008, 4:25 pm

I can confirm that the several of the people featured in the video are not members.

As for flier permission, I don’t know. The City Manager is (or was) a leader in that church — he’s featured on their website. If the city grants permission for that sort of advertising (which I suspect they don’t) one would think they would have requested and been granted permission.

Speaking as a documentary filmmaker, any time you shoot video of someone, you need them to sign a release form. Having said that, very few videographers actually do it. I have most (not all) interviewees fill out forms for documentaries I produce. But generally, when I’m shooting a quick interview for hburgnews, I simply tell them who I am, what it’s for, that it’s going to be up on YouTube, etc. I usually try to record them consenting to be interviewed.

Comment from Brian M
Time: August 11, 2008, 4:40 pm

I just spoke with one of my close friends who is featured in the video and he was amazed and surprised. He was never told that his image would be used in this way to advertise in a marketing campaign for a church. Allegedly, he was told (or led to believe) that the video project was for a focus group and wasn’t going to be used in this way. The female individual never informed him of any affiliation with a religious group. This seems to me to be a pretty slick way to get people on their video.

Shame on them (or at least the videographer).

Comment from finnegan
Time: August 11, 2008, 4:43 pm

City municipal code, section 6-1-25.

Posting advertisements, flyers, etc.; prohibited.
No individual, business, organization club or group of any description, shall, without advance written permission of the director of public works, post, attach, affix, or cause or encourage another to post, attach, or affix, any sign, flyer, poster or notice, to any object or surface, such as a utility pole or traffic sign or signal, within a public right-of-way or on property owned or leased by the City of Harrisonburg; nor shall any mark of any nature be made with any implement or substance.

For what it’s worth, my band used to post fliers for shows on telephone poles in the late 90s. Before MySpace, of course ;)

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 11, 2008, 4:51 pm

finnegan - so I guess it comes down to whether they got that “advance written permission.” In light of how the video thing went down, my guess is they did not, any more than they were up front about the making of the video, their affiliation, or the purpose of the video.

That’s really not a great reflection on that church, IMO. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. You need to be sure you *find out* what the rules are before you embark on something like this.

Comment from Barnabas
Time: August 11, 2008, 5:22 pm

Yeah but what if they tell you you can’t do it? Then you’ll have to have your music festival in a basement.

Whats the big deal?

Isn’t the site with the video a separate sight than that of the church? The video doesn’t promote the church, the link underneath takes you to the church site if your curious enough to click. If a band did this most people would think it was pretty cool. But it’s not a band, it’s a church, so they will be judged more severely. I think it was well produced and that the people who made it must have been pretty excited. From what I know of Aletheia it’s a rather young congregation. I wouldn’t doubt id they used a flyer canvassing because thats the same thing they would do to promote their band or Chicken BBQ sale.

Comment from Annie Hololob
Time: August 11, 2008, 5:37 pm

These posters were all over Harrisonburg Crossing shopping center, and I spent time tearing them down off of the B&N windows this morning. Like most businesses we have a very strict no solicitation policy and I for one don’t need to waste time cleaning up someone else’s litter. As far as I’m concerned, this is as obnoxious as the Amway sales people that harass our customers shopping for books, and I would happily call HPD to have them removed, the same way we do with the Amway folks.

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 11, 2008, 5:40 pm

It’s a bigger deal because of what churches (usually) stand for. I’m not saying they should be lashed or put in stocks, and I don’t think it makes them a bad church or bad people, but yeah, I think a church, any church, has an obligation to be above reproach in how it goes about conducting itself, and *especially* in how it chooses to promote itself. The very nature of promotion and marketing is that you’re going to be more visible, so make sure, in making yourself more visible, that you do so in a way that reflects well upon your church and your beliefs.

Comment from chrisfb
Time: August 11, 2008, 5:49 pm

At least two of the kids in that ad are atheists. So, the person behind the camera was definitely not up front about the video’s purpose.

Comment from mikekeane
Time: August 11, 2008, 5:53 pm

For the record I support an individual or group’s right to post bulletins publicly - regardless of city municipal code.

That is certainly not what is at the root of what is wrong with this, and many, evangelical churches informed by marketing strategies rather than compassion. Youth ministry, especially from obscure churches more and more ventures in the the realm of a chilling and treacherous battle for our minds, souls and wallets.

Comment from mikekeane
Time: August 11, 2008, 6:03 pm

*…in TO the realm of…

Comment from Brian M
Time: August 11, 2008, 6:21 pm

To Barnabas:

Spend your life picking up litter from others and maybe you’d feel differently about having a community trashed by anyone, church or otherwise. It is very frustrating to see business ad and political signs posted on City property. When it’s being mowed, an employee has to remove that material. It’s not very attractive to see tape and slivers of colored paper littering a City electric pole. If I wanted to post something then I would be darned sure to follow the rules even if I didn’t agree with them. The policy is to ensure that someone is responsible for taking down the signs when the event has passed. Will anyone be taking down these signs and every bit of tape that was used when the signs are no longer readable? If so then they are among the first to do so.

There are outlets in this community to provide other citizens with nonprofit messages. There’s the City Span (Ch. 3 on ComCast) which is free. There are community interest bulletin boards throughout the City. If none of these legal options are enough then they should pay to have their message heard like any other group or individual in the area.

Comment from Josh
Time: August 11, 2008, 6:23 pm

I can’t help but admire their video and website. Sure, I agree with others in that the way they created the video was a bit shady (I’d be upset if my interview was on there), but, wow!, they’ve done a terrific job promoting their brand!

Mikekeane’s latest comment is very insightful. Churches are sometimes informed by marketing strategies rather than compassion. Enter the rise of the megachurch and church plants like this in valley. Think about it. With our multitude (many dozens) of churches, some thought there was yet another group that was somehow not being reached out to. Market research.

Comment from Thomas Paine
Time: August 11, 2008, 6:46 pm

I can’t believe the hostility I’m seeing at this ad thing. There are thousands of flyers and road signs up all over town at any given time of the year. Now that it just happens to be promotion for a church, everyone’s irate??? Harrisonburg is really showing its small-town mentality this time.

Comment from David Miller
Time: August 11, 2008, 7:05 pm

A church is a business as much as any other, except that they pay no income, property or other forms of taxes. They have income and strive to bring parishioners to their “store-front”. They do so for different reasons than most businesses but the correlation is realistic. For this reason I disagree with their marketing methods. If I have to follow the rules for my businesses, shouldn’t everyone else? Also, don’t litter up a community when you’re mission statement reinforces serving that very community “Our mission at Aletheia is to serve our community and local area colleges and universities.” (source http://www.aletheiachurch.com/ mission statement link)

Otherwise good website, minus the immediate loud music that I struggled to find a mute button for.

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 11, 2008, 7:09 pm

I would also agree about the dangers of emphasis on marketing, rather than on actual mission and message.

Comment from Thomas Paine
Time: August 11, 2008, 7:49 pm

I agree that too great an emphasis on marketing is a bad thing for a church. But in this case, I think they are simply using it as a means to a greater end. They aren’t trying to sell a product, they’re trying to give a message. Churches everywhere are struggling with finding an effective way to share the message of Christ. This just seems like a clever (and successful) way to do it.

Comment from Mike
Time: August 11, 2008, 8:48 pm

Illegally hung flyers creating visual clutter and eventual litter? What a pity.

Everyone knows God would prefer you to spray paint “Jesus loves you” up and down the interstate…

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 11, 2008, 8:56 pm

Look, I’m a Christian, too. I understand the need to get the message out there, but ignoring the law, creating clutter/litter, and using people’s likeness under misleading pretences, some of whom would NOT appreciate their likeness being used to promote a church, is NOT the best way to do it.

Comment from Jeremy Aldrich
Time: August 11, 2008, 9:12 pm

It’s okay, Brooke…I saw some people using a likeness of a church to promote their humanistic ideas. Fair is fair.

Seriously, though, if littering is happening it needs to stop. Other than that, this is a pretty awesome campaign for any local organization to put together. Maybe I should see if they could help me put together a viral campaign for Crocktown.

Comment from Emmy
Time: August 11, 2008, 9:44 pm

I have no problem with a church or a band wanting to get the word out there. I don’t have a problem with any group trying to get their message out. I am equally irritated when I see band material all over the place…but we aren’t talking about that, we’re talking about this church. I’m also amazed at the number of these things I saw today in a very short commute to work. Its excessive, so that’s why it came to my attention. There are all sorts of businesses who will put up your stuff and I’m sure that the members of this church own some of them or have other means of spreading this message.

The video is really good and its a great idea. However, I think if you are going to use someone’s interview you need to tell them what it is for.

I don’t think it has anything to do with the fact that this is a church, except that you would expect that a church would be following the rules and open about their intent.

My church has a pretty big congregation, but we don’t have a permanent home. So, we can’t just hope people drive by and want to stop. We have to look into other ways to get the message out. We’re on MySpace, Facebook, and my pastor has a blog. They were in the Christmas parade too. It isn’t that big of a town. You don’t have to litter to get the message out there.

Comment from Benjamin E.
Time: August 11, 2008, 9:50 pm

Whenever I see signs taped to light poles, in the median strips, or posted elsewhere illegally, I think of the crew of Public Works employees that are going to be wasting a whole day (or more) removing them all. 4 people * $15.00/hr * 8 hour day = $480. That doesn’t even take into account gas mileage. Neat marketing idea though not thought out well. They should have just kept the signs in their yards.

Comment from Aaron
Time: August 11, 2008, 10:07 pm

Hey H’burg residents…

I wanted to thank everyone for their insightful feedback. I guess we achieved our intended purpose which was to create a buzz; albeit a negative one for the most part (at least on this site). I appreciate all of you responding to our marketing campaign. I also want to assure everyone that when the campaign is over with, we are planning to personally remove every poster on every post in the city.
We care about people and if we have hurt anyone through our methods, then we apologize. The greek word for aletheia is “not concealed” and we are not concealing anything with this. The purpose of what we are doing is to bring attention to our church and more importantly God; I think that people understand that. We have used other methods as well such as knocking on over 20,000 doors in the last 7 years as well as putting ads in news papers and radio.
We are trying to relate to our culture and that is why we did what we did. Just as some of you commented…bands as well as other businesses and people having yard sales have used the same tactics.
We attempted to cover all of our bases as far as the legalities go, but maybe somehow we missed something.
Oh, and the city manager had no part in this.
The people on the video were interviewed for the purpose of answering the question of “what is it?” That’s all. There was no other reason than that. The interviews are nowhere on the church web site and they obviously in no way connect these people with Aletheia Church, its beliefs, or even God.
We hope that those of you who are taking the time to post on this blog site will give Aletheia Church a chance and come check out our church sometime.
I’d love to sit down with any one and explain more of who we are as a church and why we did what we did because I know how these blog sites can get crazy.
Once again, we had no ill intentions or bad motives and we are sorry if you are irritated with us or think badly of us. We are just normal human beings just like you who like to be creative and express our creativity in different ways just like you do. Thanks again for the feedback.

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 11, 2008, 11:14 pm

I have a home church, but thanks.

I am glad you are going to remove all the signs once you are done with the campaign, but what about the ones that will have blown off in the meantime? What about the fact that they are up in places where they are unwanted, or illegal? Does this not concern you?

How did you attempt to cover all the legalities if you didn’t even check to see what the laws were concerning putting up flyers? Attempting to cover all your bases means checking to see what the law says, and then adhering to it. It means calling a city official and finding out where you can and cannot post them.

As far as the video, I’m sorry, but it is connected with your church, because you’re using the video as part of a campaign to draw attention to your church. No, they’re not being asked to give testimonials, but did you ask any of them permission to us their likeness in the campaign? Did you get releases signed? Did you tell them after you asked your question, that this was a campaign for your church? You admit the flyers, and the symbol, are part of a marketing campaign, to get the message out, so I’m not getting how the video, where you ask people about the symbol and then it links to the church site, is not part of the same marketing campaign for your church? Did it not occur to you that some of those people may not wish to be in a video that was a marketing campaign for church? As has been pointed out, there are a couple atheists in the video, who probably aren’t too keen on the fact that they were unknowingly used in a church’s marketing campaign.

Don’t get me wrong, I do I think your intentions are good, your heart is in the right place, and I’m sure your church will do good work in the community as far as spreading the Good News, but as a fellow believer, I think you really need to be very careful, when presenting yourselves to the community, that you respect the community, and follow the law. I really kind of feel that you could have done a much better job of that.

Nevertheless, I’m hoping your church will grow and flourish. :-)

Comment from mikekeane
Time: August 12, 2008, 3:13 am

“Hey H’burg residents…

…I wanted to thank everyone for their insightful feedback. I guess we achieved our intended purpose which was to create a buzz; albeit a negative one for the most part (at least on this site). I appreciate all of you responding to our marketing campaign.”

“not concealed” - aletheia

Well, another church awkwardly wields the modern powers of marketing only to shoot themselves in the foot and create a bad name for themselves.

Its disturbing to see the appropriation of edgy ideas and new technology for these misguided messianic ends. That seems to be what this church is all about - their schtick appears to involve a rock band lifting some punk guitar riffs, a fog machine, glow sticks, a slick website, blogs, viral marketing, a facebook page and pay pal solicitations all target marketed at the soul. The new face of christianity seems to look a lot like a creepy Madison Avenue executive. It just seems like so much pandering to me…

The creepiest part must be the video encouraging the viewer to use their evangelism model. It consists of several College students all reiterating the same wishy washy 4 step program for talking to freshmen about joining their church under the pretense of friendship.

The donations they are soliciting aren’t even for charitable works they are for more evangelism (camera, building, van, etc). The link to the blog tells of a recent trip to Peurto Rico involving an American Idol audition and evangelizing to 15 people!

“The trip was unique in that we didn’t have the overwhelming amount of opportunities to share Christ with people. This is true especially when compared to the past trips we have taken to other Latin American countries. Since we quickly realized this after the first couple of days being there, we started asking God to send us to those few people who were so ready to hear the Gospel. And that is exactly what God did. I think we shared the truth with 15 people while we were there and 9 of them accepted Jesus. And those 9 people were so genuine in their commitments.”

oh, and this:

“…Finally, the second worship set. We ended with “Take It All” by United and I’ve got to tell you, I’ve never seen so many fists being pumped at one time in God;s house. It felt more like a heavy metal concert than a worship service. It was Awesome with a capital A.

We are now anxiously awaiting the return of the college students this fall and wondering where in the world we are going to seat everyone. Thank goodness that the Harrisonburg city manager is on our leadership team. He may have some ideas ”

oh, its rich:

“We started our new series “Reset” and it was amazing. We set up a bunch of alarm clocks on the scaffolding next to the top cab speakers as props. All of the clocks were blinking and I swear that at one point I was being hypnotized. It definitely got the point across.

Also, it was Fathers Day so you know the band had to melt some faces off and rock out for the dads. We played a couple new songs, one of which was the Aletheia original “A Call To Arms.”

So - church seems to consist of something like an emo show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGXlBQsQCDg

If you watch the YouTube videos you’ll see them baptize someone in a hot tub:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N07cmGb8lk8

Show off their van, brag about how much it pollutes, then ask for money for another

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWrZf8sb1FE

Parents: your lonely children go off to college and these guys snatch them up.

Is this the same church group kicked of JMU’s campus a few years ago?

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 12, 2008, 8:11 am

Well, Mike, while the church is also supposed to help others, the primary mission of any church should be sharing the Gospel, so I can’t fault them for that. One takes care of temporal needs (good, and necessary) but the other addresses the soul and eternity.

Comment from Benjamin E.
Time: August 12, 2008, 9:32 am

“The interviews are nowhere on the church web site and they obviously in no way connect these people with Aletheia Church, its beliefs, or even God.
We hope that those of you who are taking the time to post on this blog site will give Aletheia Church a chance and come check out our church sometime.”
I am slightly offended that you seem to be assuming that we are ignorant to your evangelical methods. You used people as a tool to steer people towards your website and to you church. Of course it is all connected. That is why we are even talking about this.

also,

According to wikipedia:
Vandalism is the conspicuous defacement or destruction of a structure, a symbol or anything else that goes against the will of the owner/governing body, and usually constitutes a crime.

Comment from Jon
Time: August 12, 2008, 12:42 pm

I can’t believe the stir this has caused; I would rank the hanging of these signs up there with Watergate.

Seriously, when we hung the posters this past weekend we thought we had covered our basis, but apparently we were wrong. I reiterate that we are sorry for any inconvenience we have caused anyone. We were anxious to get the word out and in our excitement we overlooked the fine print. This was not intentional and we made a mistake. I would bet that everyone reading this blog has made a mistake today.

People can blog and pick apart our every word and assume to know our intentions but I don’t know why you would want to do that. I would venture to say that most of you that negatively are blogging us are smarter than myself and if we got in a verbal boxing match I would most certainly lose and I do not have the time to continue to write these blogs. So the purpose of this blog is not to pick a fight, but to call attention to some things that most of you do not realize and hopefully make you think twice before stereotyping our church or attacking our pastor.

We are a church with a young demographic. So the music is different than any other church in the area. The way our pastor writes the weekly blogs is different than any other church in the area. Our graphic designing and the way we do ministry is different than other church in the area. We are not different in a better way, we are just different.

Our mission goal starts with loving God then loving others. This remains our focus and this will be misconstrued by certain people. You should know that there are hundreds of students that came in to JMU and other local colleges that were partying, getting drunk and doing drugs and God changed their lives through Aletheia Church. Our pastors have bought thousands of dollars in meals (out of their own pockets) for other people to help them out. We have gone and cleaned up many yards after being littered with beer cans and red cups from the previous night. We have moved dozens of people (that don’t go to our church) because they couldn’t afford a moving crew. We have made thousands of visits within the community to share the Gospel. This isn’t a pat on the back, but it is to say that we genuinely care about other people and we have seen Jesus change countless lives at Aletheia. This is what gets us excited - seeing lives changed through a personal relationship with Jesus.

Many of the people that spent countless hours working on this project take your comments to heart and that is not what pregnant moms and friends of mine need to be dealing with right now. So, if any of you have anything negative to say then I would challenge you to send me an email and let me know when you can meet for lunch so we can talk about it. It is a free country and you can continue to blog negative things, but that is the easy way and if you are really convicted about this then wouldn’t you rather talk about it? I will buy you lunch wherever you would like to meet. I most likely will not check back on these blogs, so email me if you would like to grab some lunch.

Comment from Emmy
Time: August 12, 2008, 1:43 pm

Jon, I go to a young church too. The majority of our congregation is college students and we have really upbeat music as well. Getting college students to church is a difficult task, and getting them to hear the message is even more tricky.

I was discussing this this morning with someone who is very involved with her church and they do lots of different things to get the word out about her church too. She watched the video and what struck her is that if you are trying to get someone interested in your church, then actually mentioning the church is probably a good idea. If nothing else, have the video redirect at the end.

I’m sure the members did put a lot of work into this. When you put that much work into something and you market it the way that you have, then you have to expect both good and bad feedback. I’m sorry if they weren’t prepared for the latter. Hopefully, it will help you in future endeavors.

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 12, 2008, 1:46 pm

Lame ditto to Emmy.

My family also belongs to a church that has a huge population of students, so I do realize the need to reach young people.

I think many of us here have been pretty clear that we think you guys had noble intentions, even if the execution was flawed.

It is my hope that you can see some of the comments less as an attack, and more as something to think about in the future as you seek to draw awareness to your church.

Comment from Jon
Time: August 12, 2008, 1:54 pm

My email address is halterjr@hotmail.com

Comment from finnegan
Time: August 12, 2008, 2:41 pm

Jon and Aaron,

Thanks for your insight. I’m sure you’ll take all these comments under advisement before you plan your next marketing campaign. But I hope you don’t make the mistake of lumping all critics into the same category. There are sympathetic Christians saying one thing, city employees saying another, and still staunch atheists saying something completely different.

In other words, the critics are diverse.

Comment from Marty
Time: August 12, 2008, 3:55 pm

Staunch Atheist here with my $.02. I have no problems with a church ‘marketing’ or putting up flyers, but man, I would’ve been beyond PO’d if I was unknowingly used in a video like this.

Comment from Peter
Time: August 12, 2008, 8:27 pm

For the record, I don’t go to any church, let alone this one. I just got an email from a friend saying that she saw me in the video.

I’m not going to claim to remember the whole conversation with the girl who filmed us, but I remember getting the impression it was to be used for a ” project” of some sorts. I certainly didn’t think it was part of an advertising campaign. Looking back on it, I should have assumed it would end up on the internet, but the girl who approached me didn’t mention it. If I had known all the facts, I’m not sure if I would have done it, but I might have.

They seem young, inexperienced, excited, and apologetic. I wouldn’t go too hard on them.

Comment from Tom
Time: August 13, 2008, 12:57 am

mikekeane: I’m pretty sure the campus group that got kicked off JMU’s campus was one that is associated with a local Church of Christ not the one that was advertising with the posters.

Comment from Terry Ward
Time: August 13, 2008, 6:36 am

.

The first time I saw one of the posters, I just KNEW that sooner or later the mystery would be explained here on HburgNews.com –YEAY you guys.

Wow.

Now for April Fools’Day I want to post some random odd symbol (maybe a bootprint upon a fish or a pear within a hexagon –yes that’ll do) around town and whisper to three people what it means –and then wait and see how long it takes to get solved on this platform. Very impressive.

.

Comment from mikekeane
Time: August 13, 2008, 2:37 pm

thanks for the clarification tom.

Comment from Tim
Time: August 13, 2008, 11:16 pm

I know that I’m late on this whole discussion, but I have to say that I was really hoping those signs were related to something more important than another church jocking for position. They advertise the same way that the first “Pirates of the Caribean” movie did.

Comment from Del
Time: August 14, 2008, 1:42 pm

Considering at least one individual and one business I saw in this video, I wonder what the position of this church is regarding gays?

Comment from David Miller
Time: August 14, 2008, 5:59 pm

Illegal littering still not cleaned up, any word on eta. I like my city, please clean up your litter

Comment from Draegn88
Time: August 14, 2008, 6:24 pm

I’ve seen these posters around town, and I wonder, the places that have them, are they church member’s homes? Or did they just slap them up at any convient corner?

I’m waiting for the wind to take the bedsheet sized ones somewhere. I wonder how HPD will handle the complaints.

Comment from Emmy
Time: August 14, 2008, 7:21 pm

They are slapped at any convenient corner. If you stand at the corner in front of Bank of America downtown. You can count at least four of them on various objects.

Comment from Josh
Time: August 14, 2008, 8:24 pm

I saw a few of them earlier this evening on lightpoles heading west into Harrisonburg, right by Martin’s/Kohl’s/etc.

Comment from Dave Briggman
Time: August 14, 2008, 9:45 pm

You know, if you take a look at this Church’s website, referenced by someone above, you’d see that the City Manager is a “leader” of this Church.

If the “postings” for lack of a better word are bothering you, why not give Kurt a polite call?

Comment from Aaron
Time: August 14, 2008, 10:47 pm

Please don’t give Kurt a call. Once again he had no part in this. This was an idea thought up by the creative team of Aletheia Church. Blame me as one of the pastors of the church not Kurt. He’s innocent in all of this. If it really is bothering you that much give me a call not him. I am at the church office everyday during the day. The number there is 432.1586.

Two invitations to meet personally have already been given and I’m throwing out the third right now. Anyone who wants to sit down and discuss this with me or Jon are more than welcome. We love our community and we love all of you guys, even if you don’t agree with our recent marketing efforts. But don’t let this bother you too much because we are planning to take down the posters tomorrow. And in a week, everyone will forget about this and we will all go on living our lives. The signs obviously served their purpose. I must note though that we will never do it again. Also, the yard signs and the sheets are at houses in which people who attend our church live at. So those are legally posted.

Once again sorry to cause such a stir with the people who posted on this site. You are very important to us and we have considered all of your words, whether harsh or supportive.

Comment from David Miller
Time: August 15, 2008, 1:53 pm

Aaron

Thank you for your heartfelt apology and for understanding our concerns in the first place. I’m glad at least that this could serve as an example to other organizations who may now think twice before litter-marketing and using unwitting citizens in propaganda. Thank you for cleaning up the mess.

Comment from speedy
Time: August 18, 2008, 1:00 pm

Wait, where did everyone go? Am I correct in assuming that august 15 was the actual last time that anyone has posted on this “discussion?” Ironically enough, that’s the same day that I personally drove around this city with the pastor of Aletheia and took the controversial signs down…there would appear to be nothing more to talk about.. so how about I write a response and give everyone something to rip apart, quote, bash, and use out of context. (kidding)
1. as I was taking these signs down I noticed numerous other “campaign” articles up on the very light posts that I placed our posters. One of which was a very attractive poster for a reggae show. So I thought to myself, “surely my reggae friends are getting bashed right now!” but to my distress, I have been unable to locate any such animosity. So I’m left to assume that we have been the attention primarily for the fact that we are a church. Which leads right into my second thought..
2. I don’t recall seeing any discussion board type talk about the mysterious posters that were nothing more than some symbol on a black background. However, as soon as we put the posters up that had a website, and the city learned that it was a church putting the posters up, that’s when the “discussions” started. I’m not surprised by this, but I do think it’s worth mentioning.
3. as for the legality behind putting posters up, I personally talked with a gentleman that works for the city of Harrisonburg and he informed me that it was ok, as long as we take them down within thirty days. This would mean that my actions in taping up an innocent piece of paper, regardless of what it says, are justified. Perhaps the city should properly educate its workers on what can or can’t be done. And I will say, that my brother is a Harrisonburg policeman, and he informed me after noticing our signs that it was in fact illegal. Our response? The very next day we drove around the city for an hour taking our posters down. We don’t think we’re above the law. We were just misinformed.
4. when one of our creative team members (a sweet pregnant woman) informed me of this pretty sweet idea to grab the community’s attention I immediately thought, “Awesome! What a great way to trick people, cheaply gather attention, and get them into our church to beg for money!!” wait, no. I thought, “Awesome! What a great way to grab the community’s attention and create a new way to get a chance to tell them about God and Jesus Christ!!” I told my parents that if only one person responds to all of this crazyness and hears the message of Jesus Christ, then this whole bit was worth it.
I’m not a writer, clearly. So please don’t critique my misspellings and horrible grammar. What I am is nothing more than a broken individual that has been set straight because of Jesus Christ. And I will spend the rest of my life using any means necessary to tell anyone and everyone that God is real, and that there is nothing we can do to ever perfect or connect ourselves with Him. God, in His mercy, came to us and created the only way to have a relationship with Him, His son, Jesus Christ’s sacrifice. And the Bible is clear that the only way to get connected with Him is by an honest understanding and apologetic attitude toward the things that we do wrong, a desire to change, and believing in what Jesus Christ did for us. This doesn’t mean that I will attempt to be “shady” and use illegal means, heck no. I’m just gonna continue to love everyone the same way that God has loved me. So again, I’m sorry for any and every bit of our “campaign” that was illegal or just not acceptable.
like it was said before, if anyone wants to meet with me, please don’t hesitate to shoot me an email- speedyclax@gmail.com i’ll buy your lunch, what a deal!

Comment from Emmy
Time: August 18, 2008, 1:27 pm

Well, I can only speak for myself Speedy. It had NOTHING to do with the fact that this was from a church. Obviously, on first look, none of us could have known what these signs were for.

Comment from finnegan
Time: August 18, 2008, 1:57 pm

The fact it was a church may have ruffled some feathers, but it didn’t bother me any more or less than if Mattress King had been behind it.

To be honest, when I first saw the yard signs, I figured it was an art student’s summer project. I think it was the sense of being tricked that rubbed some the wrong way — in the video and with the flyer campaign. You think it’s one thing, and it turns out to be something different.

Comment from Del
Time: August 18, 2008, 3:11 pm

I didn’t comment on the “the signs obviously served their purpose” qualification in the previous apologies but this latest post is further evidence that your group doesn’t really understand why people were upset. First of all, I’m sure if a concert promoter staged a campaign of this style and size, including hanging concert posters in the windows of stores in Harrisonburg Crossing, there would be an equally vocal response. While illegal, those far fewer Reggae concert posters were hung simply to publicize a show(s) in a straightforward manner. Your campaign was clearly designed to provoke a reaction, create a buzz (however you want to put it) by plastering the community with amiguous imagery. That was what you intended and what happened, as your spokespeople have conceded. So don’t start playing the victim card now. Legality aside, it was another level of marketing than hanging a few concert posters. If every business, church or organization started doing this, the town would constantly look exponentially trashier than campaign season. So, yes, when people found out that a presumably responsible organization like a church was behind these “mysterious posters” there was a reaction. Once again, as you planned. And yes, there was an emotional reaction to your campaign beyond just the legality. To put it in terms you can understand: how would you feel if some neo-pagan Goddess worshipers blanketed the town with illegally posted signs, hung up posters in the windows of your businesses without asking permission and interviewed people coming out of your church for a promotional video for the Earth Goddess without telling them what was up? I gaurentee there would be at least as loud an objection.

Comment from Barnabas
Time: August 18, 2008, 3:15 pm

So other than being your logo, what is it? Do the three blocks have any signifinance? The three blocls don’t seem explained and don’t seem to have a meaning, unless I missed it. At least ebay explained what “it” was.

Comment from mikekeane
Time: August 18, 2008, 3:49 pm

The true issue, as I said above and i’ll reiterate it here now chunking my own comment:

“This church can’t use their own parishioners in their add they need to go out and find cool young people to bolster their appeal. I would be irate if I found myself in an add like this. I seriously doubt the person behind the camera was up front about his/her purpose.”

…the issue I raised was the blatant trickery used to make your promotional video. it speaks volumes about your religion. the viral marketing campaign of flyering was primarily annoying because you went sooo wild with the posters.

Also, the poster on reservoir and east market was surely up for more than 30 days for those who want to continue to go into the legality issue - which i don’t particularly care about. ’speedy’ asserted everything was down in 30 days, yet that one was up for a long time in advance of the full campaign.

The question of gays ‘del’ raised hasn’t been answered in any of the church’s leadership’s posts. any comments?

Speaking of church leadership - does anyone who called Kurt want to share their experience? Has anyone called him?

Also, do you really think anyone doesn’t know about jesus!? There is a church on every corner - I believe the post above by ‘tim’ correctly pins you as ‘another church jocking for position’ whether you want to believe it or not.

Can’t there be some sort of late stage christianity? Since every corner of the world has already been colonized can’t you can stop focusing on outreach and just try to make the world a better place???

Comment from David Miller
Time: August 18, 2008, 4:41 pm

But it’s about spreading the good word Mike. That is making the world a better place. No I kid.

Speedy, you missed the point and started the thread all over again. Respect our right as citizens of this city to not deal with your litter. Why are you trying to re-hash this discussion, why do you not respect our previous comments and explanations (do you disagree with anything we said)? Also please don’t try and act oppressed. Churches are some of the most privileged forms of organization in our society/governmental setup. Kinda like the old liberal media claim.

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 18, 2008, 4:48 pm

My thought is instead of coming in and playing the “We’re getting picked on” card and getting very, very defensive, please stop and really stop and listen to what people are saying, and think about why they were concerned. There are some very legitimate concerns, and I think that, given your church’s name involves “community” you truly need to listen to how the *community*, at large, perceived your campaign and methods. Perception, as they say, is reality.

It’s easy to assume that anyone who had complaints is anti-Christian or anti-Church, but that simply isn’t true. There are some of us here who are Christians, regularly attend church, understand your intentions, but simply think that you went about things the wrong way, and need to understand WHY people are upset to truly learn from this experience. We also think that if you’re going to go out and represent your faith and Christ, you need to try to be above reproach in your methods.

This isn’t said in judgment, or hate, but in wanting you to understand why people were put off.

LEARN from the past instead of getting defensive and making excuses. All getting defensive does is make things worse and makes any apologies ring hollow.

Comment from Scott Rogers
Time: August 18, 2008, 8:09 pm

So other than being your logo, what is it? Do the three blocks have any signifinance? The three blocls don’t seem explained and don’t seem to have a meaning, unless I missed it. At least ebay explained what “it” was.

Barnabas — this explains it, though you have to poke around on their web site a bit to find it.

Comment from Mike
Time: August 18, 2008, 8:28 pm

It makes me sick when people try to make it sound like “The Church” is so oppressed. I knew that instead of responding to that resentful, defensive post I should wait for more reasonable folks to say what I was thinking.

Thanks to all the respectful posters who took the time to try (again) to explain the situation, instead of taking speedy’s invitation to more hostility. If you ask me the whole situation was resolved and apologies issued to anyone who was bothered. You do not do your cause any service by stirring things up again.

Comment from Scott P. Rogers
Time: August 18, 2008, 9:44 pm

I have actually found it to be rather interesting to see the reactions to this ad campaign that used a “hook” or a “trick” to attempt to engage an audience.

I am a Realtor, and a member of the Virginia Association of Realtors (VAR), and a year or so ago VAR launched an internal ad campaign (directed to its members) with somewhat of a “trick” as well. The goal of the campaign was/is to reinforce to Realtors that acting ethically is a good business decision. The campaign’s hook was a slimy character named Ted Truitt who was promoting his highly questionable (unethical) sales systems. The hook worked in terms of engaging Virginia Realtors and getting the real message of the campaign in front of them, BUT there was some degree of distaste for the campaign, I believe because people felt “tricked” by the campaign.

So….after all of that….two thoughts….

1) Does an example come to mind for anyone of an ad campaign that “tricked” the intended audience that didn’t have some segment of that audience feeling offended? Given this local example, and VAR’s example, I’m wondering if some of that response is inevitable.

2) There were certainly quite a few people commenting here that they had “issues” with this church’s ad campaign — and the sum of the comments at least once seemed to be attributed to the “community at large”. First off — the only reactions we’re getting here would seem to be from hburgnews readers — and despite how widely read this blog has become, its reader base still may not be a very true representation of the Harrisonburg community at large. Second — I would guess that less than 10 percent (maybe less than 5 percent?) of blog readers actually leave comments, so I’m wondering whether the comments here are even all representative of the public’s feelings about this ad campaign. Maybe we should take an anonymous poll? :)

Comment from mikekeane
Time: August 18, 2008, 11:21 pm

Do you realize as we are typing these critique of a local church BOTH major party candidates for president intend to continue Bush’s failed ‘faith based initiatives”? Obama even wants to expand it! I’m sure this church applied to be exempt from taxation - what if they applied for FEDERAL money to educate children… through emo songs about jesus!?! I was hoping this election cycle would bring to an end the recent outcropping of hokey churches, then came Obama’s faith based initiatives speech in early July. Boo! I’m sick of hearing about the poor churches getting picked on. Its been 7 years of an evangelical president feeding money and legitimacy to these people and here we have a micro example of why we should stop and the type of behavior we can expect from them if we continue.

Comment from finnegan
Time: August 19, 2008, 7:41 am

From Aaron Proffitt’s blog:

Many of you now know but the new Aletheia logo has finally been introduced to the world and this past Sunday night, a crew of 30 people canvassed the community with posters, as well as yard signs and sheets (that we put in front of aletheia people’s homes); all to promote the site http://www.3blocks.org.

[...and from the following entry, posted yesterday...]

It was a great day yesterday. I think our marketing campaign this past week proved to be a success. We probably had close to 40 visitors. And that is saying a lot because the students are not yet back in town.

That’s a sharply different take on the campaign from what’s been posted here.

Comment from Scott P. Rogers
Time: August 19, 2008, 8:07 am

We probably had close to 40 visitors.

I wonder if they were critics wondering why Aletheia was littering!? :)

That is pretty interesting, though — apparently the campaign did accomplish its intended result, even though there were some critics of the method.

Comment from Del
Time: August 19, 2008, 8:10 am

Regarding Finnegan’s comment on the blog: I’ve watched the religious right carefully over quite a few years. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon to have one statement which is aimed at the general public and another that is intended only for the faithful.

Comment from Del
Time: August 19, 2008, 8:22 am

And whether this campaign accomplished its goal or not is irrelevant. This marketing strategy can only be effective if everyone else is following the law. If other businesss and organizations started doing this the town would be covered in trash, this sort of campaign would be ineffectual and the “community at large” would without doubt have a negative reaction.

Comment from Thanh
Time: August 19, 2008, 8:26 am

Ditto to Brooke’s last comment. Well said.

Scott, just to share my two cents… I wasn’t bothered by the church engaging me as a member of the intended audience with the mysterious 3 blocks. When I found out what it was, I went to the website and decided it wasn’t for me.

However, what bothered me was how this group of individuals conducted their interviews for their video. It appears they didn’t tell the interviewees what the recording was going to be used for or that it was going to be used publicly at all. (They should have informed the interviewees at the end, and even better gotten a signed waiver to protect themselves.) To me, it was the interviewees that were “tricked”.

I was bothered secondly by the sheer number of fliers posted around town, which inevitably turns to litter (unintentionally) and I was bothered by the posting of some fliers on private property without permission (see Annie Holobobs comment above).

Lastly, I appreciate Aaron’s sincere apology and I wish that “speedy” didn’t try to stir things up again… See Brooke’s comments again who summarized by feelings also well. Thanks.

Comment from Scott P. Rogers
Time: August 19, 2008, 8:48 am

It appears they didn’t tell the interviewees what the recording was going to be used for or that it was going to be used publicly at all.

I agree that it might not have made sense to conduct the interviews in this way.

I was bothered secondly by the sheer number of fliers posted around town, which inevitably turns to litter (unintentionally)…

I agree with this, in theory, though I haven’t seen the flyers laying in gutters anywhere. Maybe Public Works has been picking them up to quickly? :)

…and I was bothered by the posting of some fliers on private property without permission (see Annie Holobobs comment above).

Yeah — that certainly made it a pain for the stores or other places where it was posted.

Comment from Scott P. Rogers
Time: August 19, 2008, 9:16 am

This marketing strategy can only be effective if everyone else is following the law. If other businesss and organizations started doing this the town would be covered in trash, this sort of campaign would be ineffectual and the “community at large” would without doubt have a negative reaction.

Agreed, however there are quite a few “legal” marketing strategies that would be equally annoying if lots of businesses and organizations starting using them….

- neon blinking signs (like at the Kroger shopping center)
- billowing columns of colored fabric (like at Spring PCS by Harrisonburg Crossings)
- large stand up banners (like the “Hot Rolls To Go” banners at O’Charleys
- large inflatable dinosaurs or other animals (like at the car dealership on 33E)

Comment from Del
Time: August 19, 2008, 1:44 pm

Speaking of which, unless there’s been a recent change in regulation that I didn’t hear about all these new flashing neon signs around town are in violation of the city’s sign ordinance. But that’s a different subject.

Comment from josh gumbert
Time: August 19, 2008, 4:14 pm

Wow! I am a business man from San Diego Ca. A friend sent me this link today to check out this “controversy” in the beautiful city of Harisonburg. I have been there many times and I love the people. Though I did not see any of the signs because I live in another state, I am suprised at how big of a deal this has become. People are irritated, angry, upset, frustrated, sorry etc. The pastor himself bloged an appology…

Look, this is just cleaver marketing. I can understand that some people are not ok with this kind of marketing. But this world revolves around ads and marketing. I am very curious to check out Aletheia Church. They seem to have a deep care for the commuinity and are not affraid to ruffel feathers in order to spread the “Good News”. I seem to recall another man who ruffelled feathers about 2000 years ago.

To Aletheia Church, Pastor Aaron and Pastor Jon:
Nice work. Keep it up. Your style, though unorthodox to the people of that town, would work great here in Cali. It gives me some good ideas.

Cheers,
Josh

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 19, 2008, 7:54 pm

1. After the (much appreciated) apology, things settled down, and then one of the members came back, made a bunch of excuses and stirred things up again.

2. If all this was was unorthodox methods, then there’d be no reason to apologize, and clearly the pastor Aaron felt the need to apologize. I think he, as well as others, realized there’s unorthodox, and “outside the box” and then there’s breaking the law and being inconsiderate (putting posters where they weren’t wanted, and including people in a church promotional video without them knowing that’s what it was used for)

Those that come here and continue to bring it all back up and make excuses and slap the hands of those who brought up *legitimate* concerns and questions, really end up nullifying Aaron’s very sweet, heartfelt apology, because, basically, what *you* guys are coming in here and saying is that we’re just big bad people picking on poor Alethia who did absolutely nothing wrong and were just trying to spread the good news.

How are we supposed to believe it when Aaron tells us you guys have learned from the mistakes, if the rest of you keep coming in here DEFENDING the mistakes? Apparently Aaron is the only one who learned anything from this experience, which doesn’t exactly reassure me.

Comment from josh gumbert
Time: August 19, 2008, 8:10 pm

mikekeane - thanks for posting those youtube clips. That church looks awesome.

Comment from finnegan
Time: August 19, 2008, 8:48 pm

“Your style, though unorthodox to the people of that town, would work great here in Cali. It gives me some good ideas.”

To sell what? Religion, or general liability insurance?

Comment from Mike
Time: August 19, 2008, 8:49 pm

“They seem to have a deep care for the commuinity and are not affraid to ruffel feathers in order to spread the “Good News”.”

Isn’t that what Colbert had to say about Bush and Co.?

Comment from Emmy
Time: August 19, 2008, 9:00 pm

You know, when this first came up I felt like I tried to give the group the benefit of the doubt because they are a church. Then once I found out which church, I tried even harder because I already had some feelings about this church from some friends. But, I’d rather not judge a church I’ve never been to. Then Aaron came on and gave an apology and I felt good because I really felt like we gave constructive criticism and I know that the church was just trying to share the good word.

Now, I’m of the impression that like all churches there are good and not so good members, but that my initial feelings might have been right.

If I said anything to offend the members of this church then I am sorry. The video was good, the idea was good, but the execution was poor. I’ve learned a lot from this campaign though and I’ll pass it on in my church. I hope this didn’t get you down and that you don’t feel like we all came down on you.

I also hope I didn’t offend the apparently very delicate pregnant woman.

Comment from Del
Time: August 20, 2008, 7:38 am

>I seem to recall another man who ruffelled feathers about 2000 years ago.<

Once again, substitute “Muhammad” for “Jesus” in this equation and imagine what the response would have been to this clever marketing.

Comment from aaron proffitt
Time: August 20, 2008, 8:37 am

Hey again H’burg residents,

I’m the pastor of this church. I issued an apology (not for actually posting the signs but for hurting those few people who have commented on this site). Are we still talking about this? The signs have all been removed. If we missed one tell me and I will personally remove it.

And again, for the fourth time, the invitation stands. I am serious about meeting up with any one of you for some lunch. I’m buying. You guys are coming to conclusions about something that you know nothing about. I am willing to answer any questions that you have in person, face to face…Which is always the best way to go about something like this.

Comment from Emmy
Time: August 20, 2008, 8:51 am

“Are we still talking about this?”

Yes. We had stopped talking about it as of the 15th and then someone from your church came back and started talking about it again. So yes, I guess we are still talking about it. I’m glad the signs are gone. Thanks for taking them down.

Comment from Del
Time: August 20, 2008, 2:48 pm

>I’m the pastor of this church. I issued an apology (not for actually posting the signs<

In other words you don’t apologize for posting the signs.

Comment from David Miller
Time: August 21, 2008, 4:14 pm

In otherwords no one from the church came to this thread after about half way through to discuss anything. My sentiment is this, if you apologize then fine, if you don’t then fine. This dude from *Cali *can bug off because he’s full of bs. Deception is also a tool of the devil you may remember ;) This topic is pretty thin now. We’ve got well intentioned citizens trying to protect the city they love from illegal and stupid marketing/littering and then there is a church that wanted to gain paritioners and stepped over the line. Then they apologized and we thanked them for hearing our concerns then they recanted their apologies then we got pissed again. Everybody happy now? Did I miss anything?

Comment from josh gumbert
Time: August 21, 2008, 4:49 pm

The dude from Cali is still around. You don’t own the website David Miller. This isn’t David Miller news.

Comment from David Miller
Time: August 21, 2008, 5:13 pm

You don’t say.

Comment from David Miller
Time: August 21, 2008, 5:18 pm

No really, you didn’t add anything substantial. Did you mean to? I really don’t want to fight with a fella who lives in California and only came to the blog to defend a friend or family members church’s irresponsible actions. I really don’t care about this subject any more and I really don’t care about your opinion since you’ve already chosen to ignore every opinion expressed on this thread besides your own.

Comment from josh gumbert
Time: August 21, 2008, 5:32 pm

Look David, I’m not trying to fight either. I gave my opinion, you gave yours and I think this thing is done. Whether the actions of the church were irresponsible or not… It depends on who you ask.
Since there has been a lot of lunch offers, I’ll throw one out there too. I’d love to buy you lunch next time you’re in Southern California and we can talk about marketing vs. Littering or “what’s it like to have actual 4 seasons in a year” or whatever. joshgumbert@gmail.com is where you can find me to claim your lunch card. Do you like Sushi?

Comment from David Miller
Time: August 21, 2008, 5:36 pm

Josh
Thank you for the offer. If I travel to Southern California anytime soon I’ll certainly take you up on your offer. Yes, I do love sushi. Thanks

Comment from josh gumbert
Time: August 21, 2008, 5:44 pm

Great. I know a really good place.

Comment from Annie Hololob
Time: August 22, 2008, 9:32 am

There are still signs up at Harrisonburg Crossing on posts, the bus shelter and light posts in the parking lot, and I saw a few on 33 eastbound across from Martin’s yesterday, 8/21.

I would rather read the ‘Daily Dave Miller’ than posts from this church, or anyone trying to sell me religion. Go Dave.

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 22, 2008, 10:16 am

There is also still, as of Monday afternoon, a sign at entrance to the Food Lion shopping center on 42.

Comment from Ryan
Time: August 22, 2008, 12:25 pm

Annie and Brooke, thanks for being on sign patrol.

Comment from Frank J Witt
Time: August 22, 2008, 12:59 pm

MAN, imagine if someone trying to get elected did this kind of sign damage…at a church.

Love ya guys!

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 22, 2008, 1:52 pm

LOL. I’m not on patrol. I just needed to make a last minute stop at the Food Dog to get something for a picnic at a park with the kidlets, noticed the sign, and thought to myself, “Wait, I thought they said they moved all of these?”

Comment from aaron proffitt
Time: August 22, 2008, 3:26 pm

Annie, I drove all over Harrisonburg crossing. I took the bus stop sign down and somebody else took down the signs at the intersection last night. I didn’t however see any of the signs on light posts in the parking lot. Could you direct me to the vicinity where those are at? Thanks!

Brooke, I guess you were referring to the yard sign in front of the old Hardee’s? That will hopefully be down today.

Like I said, if you see any, let me know. You guys are really on top of this. Thanks.

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 22, 2008, 3:34 pm

Yeah, that was the one. I’m not really trying to be on top of anything. I just noticed it, that’s all. :-)

Comment from finnegan
Time: August 22, 2008, 6:30 pm

“Daily Dave Miller”

David, I think you know what you now must do.

C’mon guys. Let’s beat this dead horse to 100. Just one more comment…

Comment from JGFitzgerald
Time: August 22, 2008, 7:29 pm

Brent,

Come now. It’s not about numbers.

Sincerely,

Weekly Joe Fitzgerald

Comment from Jeremy Aldrich
Time: August 22, 2008, 8:27 pm

As long as we don’t push it to 101 comments, I’m okay with this thread going on.

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 22, 2008, 8:40 pm

Now you’ve done it! LOL

Comment from JGFitzgerald
Time: August 22, 2008, 8:41 pm

Gx,

You always gotta overdo it.

JF

Comment from Kyle
Time: August 22, 2008, 9:14 pm

>I seem to recall another man who ruffelled feathers about 2000 years ago.<
—————————-
Now that’s stupid.
——————————
Comment from Brooke
Time: August 11, 2008, 8:56 pm

Look, I’m a Christian, too. I understand the need to get the message out there, but ignoring the law, creating clutter/litter, and using people’s likeness under misleading pretences, some of whom would NOT appreciate their likeness being used to promote a church, is NOT the best way to do it.
———————————–
Therein lies the problem and why so many other cultures hate us, and rightfully so……..there is no “need to get the message out there.” That is an arrogant, self-righteous presumption of christians, especially the born-again simpletons.

Comment from Ryan
Time: August 22, 2008, 9:25 pm

Kyle,
I don’t expect you to understand but Brooke is right. The Bible tells us (as Christians) to get “the message out there. By me sharing the message, I’m not being arrogant, I’m following what I believe. This issue is dead right now. What you are bringing up is something seperate. Iwould encourage you to take some of those giys up on their lunch offers. It might prove to be enlightning for you.

Comment from Kyle
Time: August 22, 2008, 9:31 pm

I doubt it Ryan. Just because you “believe” it doesn’t make it true or right. That is arrogant….thinking that you have some special “right” to impart your belief on others. I really don’t care what the “bible” tells you, its a nice piece of fiction that simplistically has been interpreted to impart “values.” I don’t need your “enlightening,” I prefer to move up the evolutionary chain, not down it.

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 22, 2008, 9:31 pm

Kyle, it depends on how it’s done.

If it’s done in an intrusive, obnoxious, disrespectful, or judgmental way, then yeah, that’s arrogant. And unfortunately a lot of Christian don’t understand the difference

But there’s nothing wrong with sharing one’s faith, in a situation where you’re being asked about your beliefs, or have an opportunity to give your take on something that stems from your faith.

It’s no different than you explaining why you are supporting a certain candidate for office, or explaining your personal thoughts and philosophy on a certain subject matter. This is just one of the things we hold dear and is part of who we are. And yes, when given the opportunity, we are called, as believers, to share why we believe as we do, but told to “do so with gentleness and respect.”

Again I think it’s all in the timing and how you do it that makes it “arrogant” or not.

Comment from Kyle
Time: August 22, 2008, 9:37 pm

Brooke,
I totally, and respectfully, disagree. Religion and spirituality is very personal and I for one do not like it thrown in my face. If I go looking for it, if I ask questions about it, then OK, you are absolutely right. But to many private people like myself, having it in your face is threatening, arrogant and pretentious. I’m from the north and have lived here for a decade and I’ve NEVER met so many people who want to “enlighten” me.

Comment from Kyle
Time: August 22, 2008, 9:45 pm

As for your last comment about “it’s all in the timing and how you do it,” do you not see that as sneaky and manipulative? Sort of like an adulterer rationalizing their affair or a pick-pocket explaining his technique to the new guy. It just seems sleazy, but christians have been brainwashed into thinking that they are different, that their behavior is snactioned by god and minister….and that is arrogant.

Comment from Emmy
Time: August 22, 2008, 9:54 pm

That’s what she’s talking about Kyle. People shouldn’t throw it in your face. Brooke said you should share it when asked. You can spread the message by living your life in the best way you can. When someone looks at you and asks what is it about you? Why is your life so great. Then you can tell them. When someone comes looking for it, you tell them. When you are asked, you tell them. You are supposed to let Christ shine through you and be a beacon to others. When they come and ask, then you share.

I don’t find anything wrong with a church wanting to get their name out there for those who are looking. But, its all in how you do it. I wouldn’t have found my church if someone hadn’t invited me. But they didn’t tell me I was going to hell if I didn’t show. They extended a polite invitation. I could have declined and they would have continued to be my friends with no judgment.

There’s no better way to drive someone away from Christianity than to shove it at them. I spent many years away from church because of those who tried to shove it at me and those who professed to be such wonderful examples, and then went against everything Christianity is about. There are a lot of Christians who make it really hard for a non-believer to want anything to do with the faith.

Comment from Kyle
Time: August 22, 2008, 10:06 pm

Emmy,
Your comments are refreshing, and I mean that. Maybe I’ve just had some judgemental, confrontational experiences. Apparently you’ve had experiences similar to mine. Passive expression, as you describe is quite acceptable, especially if I initiated the conversation. For me, the more they press, the more they push me away. I wish that they would understand that not all who wander are lost. As I’ve mentioned before, spirituality is very private for me and I do not want strangers trying to convince me that their way is the only way. Religion is a choice, there are plenty of them out there, and what works for them might not work for me. Thanks for you thoughtful comments.

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 22, 2008, 10:45 pm

Thanks Emmy for explaining it (apparently) better than I did.

That’s *exactly* what I mean. I am wholeheartedly against the “shove it in your face” tactics employed by some Christians, albeit, well-intentioned. That’s what I mean about timing. Not that you have to “time it just right” but that there’s a time and a place to share your beliefs, and then there’s being intrusive and obnoxious. A “jerk for Jesus” if you will.

To me it should be in the context of genuine relationship (in other words NOT making friends with the sole goal of proselytizing) and in the context of someone wanting to hear what you have to say.

For instance, perhaps in a conversation about a current events topic, where people are discussing their stances on an issue and WHY they take that stance, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to say, “Well I feel this way, because I believe, XYZ” and then if asked to expound, then take that opportunity to *respectfully* share your beliefs.

To me the ground rules are pretty much the same as ANY person sharing their personal views on a subject. Don’t be pushy and rude. Besides, that’s the antithesis of what Christians are called to. I wish more of us believers would meditate on passages like I Peter 3:15 and I Corinthians 13. And above all else, the Golden Rule of “Do unto others…” If I wouldn’t appreciate a person of another faith or ideology approaching me in a certain way about their beliefs, then I should be careful not to do that to others.

I hate tracts, by the way. Grew up with them, have no use for them, and think they are part of the obnoxious and pushy, not to mention, 9 times out of 10, it just winds up as litter or one more thing thrown into our landfills.

Comment from Emmy
Time: August 22, 2008, 10:57 pm

Funny story about tracts.

I was drying my hair one afternoon and thought I heard a strange voice. My kids were alone in the living room and I came out to my youngest child standing in the open door talking to a man I didn’t know. Turns out the guy was coming to gives us tracts and Tanner opened the door for him. They knew not to open the door to strangers and had never done it before. The man was asking him to go find me and he was just standing there. I have no idea what my kid was thinking when he did it, or why he just stood there looking at him, but he freaked the guy out so bad he just handed me the tracts and went about his day!

Comment from Kyle
Time: August 22, 2008, 11:11 pm

Brooke,
Well said. I must admit that at my store I get people al the time who are judging me by where I go to church. Its shallow, I know, but it happens every day. They will make a subtle comment and then wait for my response. If I’m neutral they are suspicious, If I make a stand they either hate me or love me and try to convert me on the spot.

As an aside, what is a tract?

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 23, 2008, 7:05 am

Tracts are little brochures or pamphlets handed out by well-intentioned folks, that usually have some witty, catchy little title (”When it’s 4th down in your life, don’t punt!”) and then talk about some spiritual issue, or why you need to get saved. While I understand the intention, I think the mode of delivery is lacking and questionable in my mind.

Comment from David Miller
Time: August 23, 2008, 12:46 pm

There are also some really funny ones. I personally love the one about the girl who met the devil in New Orleans.

Comment from Brooke
Time: August 23, 2008, 1:07 pm

Hadn’t seen that one! Sounds like a winner. LOL

Comment from Draegn88
Time: August 23, 2008, 2:02 pm

Ah the mormon missionaries were out today. I have to ask, why do they dress like Agent Smith of The Matrix?

Comment from David Miller
Time: August 23, 2008, 3:14 pm

That’s about as scary as I can think of, why not?

Comment from mikekeane
Time: August 23, 2008, 3:18 pm

wow, well over 100 posts! i’ve enjoyed this thread. i think this thread makes it apparent that our community really wants to discuss and critique religion.

Comment from David Miller
Time: August 23, 2008, 3:56 pm

Mike, I think this thread proves that this community is barely able to chide a church for littering/law breaking, much less critiquing religious beliefs.

Comment from David Miller
Time: August 23, 2008, 4:00 pm

In today’s “Daily Dave Miller”, a discussion on religion, its origins and modern day impact on the Shenandoah Valley populace.

Scroll forward to the end of the “Daily” to find Dave’s obituary.

Comment from Scott P. Rogers
Time: August 23, 2008, 4:22 pm

I think Mike and Dave are both correct! :)

Comment from mikekeane
Time: August 23, 2008, 5:05 pm

I felt like i could do all the chiding i wanted to. I even learned a little bit about restraint and enjoyed emmy and brooke’s comments some agreeing with me some differing. I was hoping for a critique of religion across various issues but no one followed up on the faith based initiatives comment. The alethia people wouldn’t comment on gays either. the sad thing is tomorrow wide eyed college freshman all across harrisonburg will be scooped up by this and other evangelical churches and we’ll have to deal with exponentially more evangelicals. Really though folks, getting the message out about jesus is really redundant, we’ve all heard it before and for one reason or another we’re just not feeling it. i’m definitely starting to feel like churches are more of a social problem than a positive force. pitting their congregations against gay rights, sheltering pedophiles, wreaking wide spread psychological damage, butting into politics and not getting taxed. all under the roof of a large wasteful building that doesn’t house anyone and only gets used once a week for an hour or two to its capacity. all in the name of some common sense moral codes and some wacky outdated ones too. i’m not saying its got all bad results but once the apple is more than half rotten you throw it out.

Comment from Ryan
Time: August 23, 2008, 5:14 pm

Mikekeane,
Pastor Aaron made the comment that you are writing about things you know nothing about. Church is more than a building used 1 hour a week. Why don’t you take him up on his offer of lunch. I’m sure he’d be willing to talk about what Aletheia’s position on you being gay or whatever else you want to talk about.

Comment from Brian M
Time: August 23, 2008, 5:49 pm

Hey, Ryan. Just so you know (not that it should matter) mikekeane is not gay. Just figured since we were talking about people “writing about things [they] know nothing about” I would let you know. He is an advocate though - which is appreciated.

Of course I am sure you, Ryan, were using “you” in the incorrect general term. =o)

Comment from Ryan
Time: August 23, 2008, 5:53 pm

Brian, yes I was speaking in generalities. Thanks.

Comment from David Miller
Time: August 23, 2008, 5:53 pm

Mike

I believe that persons that are attracted to evangelism are already headed that way, at least its not actual kool-aid.

Personally I only have a problem with religion when it is interjected into politics. As they say, a few things to never talk about over dinner. Well to me religion is something to never talk about during politics. The mix always curdles.

and Ryan, don’t assume Mike is talking about things he doesn’t understand. You’d be mistaken. Just a heads up.

Comment from mikekeane
Time: August 23, 2008, 7:54 pm

ha! thanks brian and dave. ryan, i don’t think a lunch date with your pastor would be pleasant for either of us.

Comment from Ryan
Time: August 23, 2008, 7:58 pm

Mike,
He’s not my pastor, I just see myself on “his side of the fence” if you will. I don’t think it would be unpleasant. There’s no reason that you can’t have a normal conversation over some lunch.

Comment from mikekeane
Time: August 23, 2008, 8:00 pm

Also, hilariously, i just looked back on my comment and realized that ryan didn’t reply to any of the substance of my comment besides church usage, he just called me gay. We can’t all find a feeling of being saved by your pastor, ryan, though he seems pleasant and patient. And yeah, for the record, not gay but yes queer friendly.

Comment from mikekeane
Time: August 23, 2008, 8:05 pm

also, thanks for the offer aaron. i’ll pass though.

Comment from Josh
Time: August 24, 2008, 8:29 am

Kyle, There are also nontracts: http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/

Comment from mikekeane
Time: August 24, 2008, 1:28 pm

wow, thanks josh. the non tracts are great. so are we going for 200 posts or is there a better discussion out there? horse? you dead?

Comment from Kyle
Time: August 24, 2008, 8:32 pm

Josh,
Thanks for the links. In my honors class in undergraduate school we used to have many thoughtful discussions about some of those very topics. Mike I have to say, that I agree with you on all your points in previous posts that I’ve read. I call religion “inheritage baggage,” where most people “inherit” their beliefs from their parents who, for lack of a better term, brainwashed them with THEIR beliefs. You know, we test drive cars, we try similar entrees at different restaraunts, most of us date several individuals before we settle on the “right one”, but when it comes to religion, most folks don’t investigate, try out, or otherwise experiment with other forms of spirituality. And those of us that do, are often ostracized for doing so because independence is deemed a threat to the financial and power control of the church.
The concept of “hell” was invented by the catholic church to scare people to stay in “the fold.” (A technique mastered by the GOP over the past decade-but that’s another thread). The evengelical movement and their 2 decade long obsession to take over any and all poitical offices is exactly about that power.
Personally I believe spirituality is important, human beings have an innate need to have explanations for those things that they cannot explain, we are scared of the unknown and need a concept of the afterlife, and we want to know more about the meaning of life and spirituality does that for us.
Organized religion, and particularly the evangelical movement and the catholic church before them, have taken spirituality and turned into a commodity designed to give them power and money. Churches today are the ultimate corporation. They are run by CEOs, have VPs and have become multi-national, multi-faceted, mega-million dollar enterprises. What do they sell? Salvation. What is their financial edge? Tax-free status. What is their marketing strategy? Coerscion, fear tactics and/or the proverbial “carrot.” The new churches have targeted the youth and their music and sermons are hip-hop, upbeat, and charismatic and the ministers will say anything to try to capture their minds (and eventually their wallets). Have you ever noticed that whenever a popular company’s slogan or logo becomes mainstream, that the church steals that very slogan to endear the public to them? “Got Milk” became “Got Jesus,” Nike’s “Just Do It” became “Just Do Jesus,” and Wal-Mart’s “Always low prices. Always” became “Always Jesus.Always.” Now that’s marketing and branding!
And like business industries and sectors who all sell the same “widget,” to survive in the market you have to differentiate yourself from the consumer. Hence, the hundreds of christian sects and branches. They all have their own, slightly different, interpretion of the bible to differentiate themselves from their competition. And, like corporations that exist in the same sector, each sect thinks that they are better than all the others and do not get along. While this is expected in a corporated culture, in a christian culture, are they being christian? No, unless you think of them as corps, then it all makes sense.
You know, if someone studies mant different types of religion, mono or poly-theisatic, native american, or east asian, etc. and THEN CAME BACK to their original belief then all the more power too them, Kudos for at least exploring. But to not know your own religious history, or ANYTHING about any others, and to blindly follow that which was placed on you by your family and community, I think is narrow minded and ignorant. Years ago, I was reading a jewish publication (full disclosure: I’m not jewish), and there was a letter written by a jewish woman who had just found out that her son was gay. She had written in to ask advice because she just coudn’t resolve this in her head and hadn’t spoke to her son in months. The Rabbi wrote back, and it had a profound effect on me, was to tell the woman to choose another religion. He wrote [sic], “If your religion will not allow you to love your son, then pick another, there are plenty out there.” I thought this was brilliantly insightful, especially from soneone highly trained in their religious beliefs.
People just don’t understand that just like a car, favorite restaraunt, favorite color or preferred breed of dog, they have the ability to pick a favorite religion/spiritual path. It doesn’t have to be chosen for them, and it should not cause inner conflict with your sense of morality or ethics! The fundamental problem is that your agressive, mon-theistic religions will do, and say, anything to stop their congregations from taking this spiritual journey which I think is critical to true peace and maturation.

(sorry for the long post folks……as you can tell I’ve had a slow day :-))

Comment from Kyle
Time: August 24, 2008, 8:53 pm

My apologies…….. for those who actually may care, here’s the post again with corrections….;-)

Josh,
Thanks for the links. In my honors class in undergraduate school we used to have many thoughtful discussions about some of those very topics. Mike I have to say, that I agree with you on all your points in previous posts that I’ve read. I call religion “inherited baggage,” where most people “inherit” their beliefs from their parents who, for lack of a better term, brainwashed them with THEIR beliefs. You know, we test drive cars, we try similar entrees at different restaurants, most of us date several individuals before we settle on the “right one”, but when it comes to religion, most folks don’t investigate, try out, or otherwise experiment with other forms of spirituality. And those of us that do, are often ostracized for doing so because independence is deemed a threat to the financial and power control of the church.
The concept of “hell” was invented by the catholic church to scare people to stay in “the fold.” (A technique mastered by the GOP over the past decade-but that’s another thread). The evangelical movement and their 2 decade long obsession to take over any and all political offices are exactly about that power.
Personally I believe spirituality is important, human beings have an innate need to have explanations for those things that they cannot explain, we are scared of the unknown and need a concept of the afterlife, and we want to know more about the meaning of life and spirituality does that for us.
Organized religion, and particularly the evangelical movement and the Catholic Church before them, have taken spirituality and turned into a commodity designed to give them power and money. Churches today are the ultimate corporation. They are run by CEOs, have VPs and have become multi-national, multi-faceted, mega-million dollar enterprises. What do they sell? Salvation. What is their financial edge? Tax-free status. What is their marketing strategy? Coercion, fear tactics and/or the proverbial “carrot.” The new churches have targeted the youth and their music and sermons are hip-hop, upbeat, and charismatic and the ministers will say anything to try to capture their minds (and eventually their wallets). Have you ever noticed that whenever a popular company’s slogan or logo becomes mainstream, that the church steals that very slogan to endear the public to them? “Got Milk” became “Got Jesus,” Nike’s “Just Do It” became “Just Do Jesus,” and Wal-Mart’s “Always low prices. Always” became “Always Jesus.Always.” Now that’s marketing and branding!
And like business industries and sectors who all sell the same “widget,” to survive in the market, you have to differentiate yourself from your competition for the consumer. Hence, the hundreds of Christian sects and branches. They all have their own, slightly different, interpretation of the bible to differentiate themselves from their competition. And, like corporations that exist in the same sector, each sect thinks that they are better than all the others and do not get along. While this is expected in a corporate culture, in a Christian culture, are they being Christian? No, unless you think of them as corps, then it all makes sense.
You know, if someone studies many different types of religion, mono or poly-theistic, native American, or east Asian, etc. and THEN CAME BACK to their original belief then all the more power too them, Kudos for at least exploring. But to not know your own religious history, or ANYTHING about any others, and to blindly follow that which was placed on you by your family and community, I think is narrow minded and ignorant. Years ago, I was reading a Jewish publication (full disclosure: I’m not Jewish), and there was a letter written by a Jewish woman who had just found out that her son was gay. She had written in to ask advice because she just couldn’t resolve this in her head and hadn’t spoken to her son in months. The Rabbi wrote back, and it had a profound effect on me, was to tell the woman to choose another religion. He wrote [sic], “If your religion will not allow you to love your son, then pick another, there are plenty out there.” I thought this was brilliantly insightful, especially from someone highly trained in their religious beliefs.
People just don’t understand that just like a car, favorite restaurant, favorite color or preferred breed of dog, they have the ability to pick a favorite religion/spiritual path. It doesn’t have to be chosen for them, and it should not cause inner conflict with your sense of morality or ethics! The fundamental problem is that your aggressive, mono-theistic religions will do, and say, anything to stop their congregations from taking this spiritual journey which I think is critical to true peace and maturation.

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