hburgnews.com

Comment from Breslau
Time: April 15, 2009, 5:24 pm

This is the new political minority in America. It feels so strange.

Comment from Benjamin Earman
Time: April 15, 2009, 5:25 pm

If Obama’s tax increase passes, it will still be lower than during Ronald Reagan’s tenure, and isn’t he these people’s God?

Comment from Brent Finnegan
Time: April 15, 2009, 5:32 pm

I must say, I was a little surprised by the size of the rally as I walked by Court Square around lunchtime. I’m not the only one who noted that. Also impressed that they stuck it out for so long in the rain.

Someone added a bunch of good photos of the demonstration to the hburgnews Flickr pool today.

Interesting quote from Kirby in the lede (assuming it’s the same Jason Kirby I knew years ago). I wouldn’t describe him as a “right-wing extremist,” but I lived where he used to live after he moved out, and I got all sorts of paramilitary/survivalist gear catalogs delivered to the house in his name.

Comment from Lowell
Time: April 15, 2009, 5:52 pm

Coincidence Brent?

Comment from Jeremy Aldrich
Time: April 15, 2009, 6:00 pm

My inner libertarian supports the push for a balanced budget and a right-sized federal government. But other than the Libertarian (capital L) platform, which is “slash spending AND taxes, and sell off government property to pay off the debt”, I don’t really know of other proposals for realistically tackling spending AND taxes AND debt at the same time. Frankly, the difference between Bush’s 3.1 trillion dollar budget and Obama’s 3.6 trillion dollar budget just doesn’t seem to me like enough of a difference to love one and hate the other.

Comment from Jeremy Aldrich
Time: April 15, 2009, 6:01 pm

And yes, it’s the same Kirby, Brent.

Comment from Jeremy Aldrich
Time: April 15, 2009, 6:09 pm

I just listened to WSVA and Mike Schikman was doing a live feed. Sounds like he was pretty on-board with their message, even helping soften it a few times for the radio masses. I wonder how other local media will treat the protest.

OK, I don’t really wonder how the DNR will treat it. But WHSV, and, uh…you know, the other local media…

Comment from johan
Time: April 15, 2009, 6:26 pm

an interesting piece ran in usa today yesterday about the columbine shooters–turns out they were more like timothy mcveigh than marilyn manson. but the american family assoiciation, et. al., were happy enough to twist the situation to fit their culture war.
i think napolitano’s warning is sobering, and the local protests kinda freak me out!

Comment from Lowell
Time: April 15, 2009, 6:32 pm

As gently as I can because I really like you Jer,
“…and sell off government property to pay off the debt”
I suppose you mean putting that same property back in the hands of private companies who can produce a profit and strengthen the economy?
Like perhaps Rosetta Stone?…

And I’m really glad you made the comparison between the Bush deficit (which wasn’t ever accurately reported because he refused to include the cost of the Iraq war in his budgets) and the Obama budget (which does)

One expenditure of money was used to destroy, and then to rebuild a foreign country. The other is to be used to support and build the United States.

I don’t need to think about it too long to know which I support.

Comment from Lowell
Time: April 15, 2009, 7:07 pm

The local protests should Johan. They’re not local. They’re not grass roots. And they’re not spontaneous.

I, along with millions of folks across the nation, received yesterday morning a call, a robo call, from (thanks to government requirement and high technology for caller id) the Washington D.C. area code that attempted to compel me to attend and participate in the day’s protests against “Obama and the Democratic Congress.” This robo call directed me to Court Square in Harrisonburg VA to join in the protest against the effort to squander our children’s future.

Fox News and the Limbaugh/Beck/Hannity/O’Riley/Boortz et. al. coalition has pulled out all the stops to create and manufacture outrage against the necessary cleanup of the mess made by their “chosen” politicians.

They’re on the verge of losing their collective minds over the fact that America voted their divisive boys the hell out of office, and that Americans believe (some 71% according to Gallup) that Obama and Co. have a better grip on what it will take to put a brake on the freefall of the economy of the United States, and set it in a better and positive direction toward getting us out of the ditch into which the previous president and congress buried the country.

Comment from Bubby
Time: April 15, 2009, 7:38 pm

Where were these people for the last eight years while Bush and his Republican Congress doubled the national debt, started a $2 trillion war, and let a bunch of crooks loot Wall Street? NOW they want to stand up and have me believe that they know what is going on and how to fix it.? PLEASE, sit down, you all look like children who didn’t get their Happy Meal.

Comment from Brent Finnegan
Time: April 15, 2009, 8:00 pm

Bubby, you need to stop blameing Bush.

Comment from Jeremy Aldrich
Time: April 15, 2009, 8:00 pm

Lowell, I don’t support the Libertarian platform, it’s just the only realistic proposal I know of to do what the protesters seem to say they’re wanting. I doubt many of them would support the Libertarian platform, either, especially if it means cutting military spending and entitlement spending for seniors (which was a large part of the group there). One of the protesters I spoke to today is even on disability!

At this point, I think our best bet is to put on our big boy shoes and pay our bills (the national debt), which we’ve been letting pile up for decades. Tax cuts will have to come later, when we can match it with spending cuts – that’s not gonna happen in any meaningful way in this climate. If we paid off our debt that would cut 8% of spending right there since we wouldn’t be paying off the interest any longer.

The problem they are concerned about is real. We absolutely are mortgaging our future, and those of the next generations, because we refuse to balance our budget by either cutting spending or raising taxes. But the palpable anger of this vocal (political) minority is misdirected – this mess isn’t Obama’s fault. I would love to hear from some of the folks who demonstrated today, to hear what solutions they would consider to be realistic.

Comment from Josh
Time: April 15, 2009, 8:19 pm

“They’re not local. They’re not grass roots. And they’re not spontaneous.”

Lowell, I have a hard time understanding where you draw the line on this one. If one’s ideas are aligned with those of the “Fox News and the Limbaugh/Beck/Hannity/O’Riley/Boortz et. al. coalition,” then so be it. If local meet-up efforts are organized by a national organization (ala MoveOn and the amazing campaign machines we witnessed this past season), what’s the big deal?

Their views deserve to be heard. I’m glad to see our courthouse square as a nice little venue for democracy.

Comment from Emmy
Time: April 15, 2009, 8:51 pm

All I can really say about this is I fail to see how it did anything. What did the above mentioned woman do today? She channeled her anger into what? Protests of the sixties worked. Protests of today are almost pointless. I’m not saying people don’t have the right to do so, but what good does it do to stand in the rain talking to people you already know agree with you and wave to your friends in their cars?

These are the same people who made fun of Obama supporters for standing in the rain at his speeches. If you think those people did nothing, then please explain the difference. At least in our case something came out of it in the end. It just seems like this whole day would have been better spent indoors writing letters to those in charge. I may not do any more good, but at least you have a chance.

If you want to protest I won’t stop you, but it just seemed silly to me. I talked to a few others who thought it was silly too, and not all of them liberals.

Comment from Jason Kirby
Time: April 15, 2009, 8:53 pm

Jeremy, it was certainly good to see you out and about sir. I can see that you are getting some use out of the Photo Journalism class we shared oh so many yeas ago. I’m also glad to see that you remain politically active.

“I wouldn’t describe him as a “right-wing extremist,” but I lived where he used to live after he moved out, and I got all sorts of paramilitary/survivalist gear catalogs delivered to the house in his name.”

Brent, it has been a while my friend. I hope all is well with you and yours. I believe the “paramilitary/survivalist gear catalogs” you would have titles such as: Brigade Quartermaster, Sportsman Guide, and Cheaper than Dirt. To someone Unfamiliar with the Catalogs I can see where they might appear to be as you say. However, I believe that a quick Google search would reveal them to be relativey mainstream Surplus and Outdoor Sporting(camping, hiking, hunting, shooting, etc.) gear mail-order retail publications.

Right-Wing Extrimist, No. Unaware and desensitised Sheople, hardly. Concerned citizen, absolutely.

Comment from Ray
Time: April 15, 2009, 8:59 pm

Well, I guess this post today confirms what a lot of readers of this blog have been saying for ahwile now (and has always been denied by the contributors) – this blog is squarely on the left side of the political spectrum and makes it clear with regards to its “reporting”. Obama’s campaign stop at JMU received near orgasmic coverage from the contributors. There was nary a challenging word spoken about it outside a few posts in the comment section. The coverage of the Tea Party is nothing but challenges with nary a kind word said. It’s times like these that make me laugh whenever I read all the deriding comments about the DN-R thrown around on here. All I can think is “pot meet keetle”.

Lowell, I’m glad to see you are so concerned that politics stay local in flavor. I look forward to not hearing/seeing/reading ads supporting the Democrat canidates in the various statewide races that feature the likes of Gov. Kaine, Sens. Warner and Webb, and/or any other state or national party member. We wouldn’t want them to poke their noses in on local races. And I’m assuming any campaign contributions that come from donors outside the districts of the canidates will be returned forthwith (including state and national party funds). Again, we wouldn’t want any outsiders affecting the race. And I also assume the party won’t employ robo-calls as the election draws closer.

Bubby, the people I know (including me) were just as outraged at the amount of spending under Bush and the Republican Congress, and made it known. This isn’t something new just because of Obama.

Comment from Jeremy Aldrich
Time: April 15, 2009, 9:10 pm

Ray: huh? What from the post is “on the left side”?

And I’m having a hard time recalling the protests on Court Square about the Bush/Republican tax-and-spend budgets. Seems like indeed this IS something new because of Obama.

Comment from Emmy
Time: April 15, 2009, 9:13 pm

Ray, we do not control who comments here. Unless it violates the few rules we have listed above the comment box it stays. So, it really isn’t our fault if you don’t see the comments you think you should.

And the HUGE difference between this blog and the DNR is they are paid to do this and we are not.

Comment from JGFitzgerald
Time: April 15, 2009, 9:31 pm

I’m from the left side, and I recognize the rights of these people to protest. Of course I’m from a generation that protested against an ill-advised war and in favors of basic civil rights for women and minorities; however, people who are only concerned with their tax bills have rights too. But it harks back to the post DebSF put up just prior to this one about people being billed for government services: if people want to whine about paying taxes, send them a bill when they need a cop, a fireman, a road, a school, a water-line, or a trip in an ambulance.

Comment from Bubby
Time: April 15, 2009, 10:24 pm

OK, a bunch of angry white people who can’t spell standing around in the rain on the Courthouse lawn warning us not to tread on them. I’d be mad too if I had spent a lifetime voting for the guys who peed on my head and called it rain. This is just sad.

Comment from Lowell
Time: April 15, 2009, 10:36 pm

Ray,
I absolutely welcome your full fledged condemnation of outside money in these up and coming campaigns! Why don’t you put a real name to your identity so you can be held somewhat accountable?

I look forward to you first condemning the lobby money your candidates have already received. Then, I look forward to you soundly condemning the outside money your candidates will receive once the special interests figure out that our candidates are a serious challenge. I will stand with you on the courthouse steps to formally and officially reject ANY funding from outside these voting districts. Are you game? I suspect this will be the last time anyone hears from you…

And as regards Senators Webb and Warner, and Governor Kaine? I’m willing to bank on the gamble that folks here will appreciate the fact that these three individuals have exhibited a sincere interest in this area and the well being of the people of this area, time and time again…

And I’m also very heartened to see you admit that the recent “robo calls” were part of an organized effort instead of the upswell of grass roots support that your team likes to portray.

So much has been made clear by the admission of your post. I wish to thank you sincerely…

I remain yours in representing the best interests of the people of the Shenandoah Valley,

Lowell Fulk

Comment from mike
Time: April 15, 2009, 10:52 pm

apparantly “bubby” (if indeed that is your real name) the white people were the only ones who werent at home waiting on their welfare checks to come in so they could afford cab fair. seems like theres always some idiot who wants to make everything into a racial issue

Comment from Ray
Time: April 15, 2009, 11:21 pm

From Jeremy – “Ray: huh? What from the post is “on the left side”?”

- The biggest thing that jumped out at me was the headline itself. I think I’m remembering correctly that the Obama one was something akin to “Open Thread For Obama Visit”. It ws definitely nothing snarky like this one.

And as to no protests during Bush’s spending. I would’ve done the same thing then as today had an organized effort been put forth.

From Emmy – “Ray, we do not control who comments here. Unless it violates the few rules we have listed above the comment box it stays. So, it really isn’t our fault if you don’t see the comments you think you should.”

I wasn’t referring to the comments under the articles but rather the article writers themselves.

“And the HUGE difference between this blog and the DNR is they are paid to do this and we are not.”

That excuse is getting old. Brent has gone on numerous times about how blogs like this are the new way news will be distributed. If criticism is good enough for the print media then it’s good enough for the “new” media. Doing it as a hobby shouldn’t be an excuse for reporting poorly researched or incorrect info.

From Joe – “But it harks back to the post DebSF put up just prior to this one about people being billed for government services: if people want to whine about paying taxes, send them a bill when they need a cop, a fireman, a road, a school, a water-line, or a trip in an ambulance.”

I have no problem paying taxes. I know government has a role in our lives. I have no problem having my taxes cover those things you listed because that’s part of the government’s role. My beef is when it tries to go into those areas where it has no business. Bailing out people who made poor decisions, whether it’s in their businesses or their personal lives, is one of those areas.

From Bubby – “a bunch of angry white people who can’t spell”

I wouldn’t cast stones on people who misspelled a sign or 2 (although I agree that can be fun) when you have Joe Biden a heartbeat away from the highest office in the land. Do any of you have some still shots of FDR’s TV addresses from 1929 concerning the Great Depression?

From Lowell – “Why don’t you put a real name to your identity so you can be held somewhat accountable?”

Well, Ray is my real name. I was going to go with “Bubby” or “Bubby Hussein, Hillbilly Shiek”, but they were already taken by your side.

“I look forward to you first condemning the lobby money your candidates have already received. Then, I look forward to you soundly condemning the outside money your candidates will receive once the special interests figure out that our candidates are a serious challenge. I will stand with you on the courthouse steps to formally and officially reject ANY funding from outside these voting districts. Are you game? I suspect this will be the last time anyone hears from you…”

Gee, you blew that last prediction ’cause here I am. Anyway, I wasn’t the one decrying a protest that wasn’t local or grass roots or spontaneous. Seems to me the guy crying for a more local political process would be the one stepping up to plate to forego the outside influences regardless of the political consequences (do a little of that “change” thing)

“And I’m also very heartened to see you admit that the recent “robo calls” were part of an organized effort instead of the upswell of grass roots support that your team likes to portray.”

Of course they were part of an organized effort thru the AFA. Davis admits in the article she got help from them in spreading the news. That doesn’t mean the upswell wasn’t a local grass roots one. It just means that an organizer needed some help. Gee, I bet the local Dems have NEVER used the state or national party or groups sympathic to the party in the same way. Just like only Rep and/or conservative special interest groups are evil while Dem and/or liberal ones are as clean and pure as the wind-driven snow.

Comment from Jeremy Aldrich
Time: April 15, 2009, 11:46 pm

There you go, Ray. I changed the headline to be descriptive yet uninteresting.

“If criticism is good enough for the print media then it’s good enough for the “new” media. Doing it as a hobby shouldn’t be an excuse for reporting poorly researched or incorrect info.”

Agreed. Do you have any complaints of that nature about this article? Or is it just that the headline was too “snarky” for your tastes and you don’t like the opinions you believe the writer holds?

Comment from JGFitzgerald
Time: April 16, 2009, 6:22 am

That fool, PF, earned the right to those comments by serving his country. That’s a point I make because so many on the right seem to think military service confers instant wisdom on vets on the Pub side. As to his comments themselves, how would the teabag contingent characterize Joan Baez suing the government to get back the portion of her taxes used to pay for the Vietnam War: Would the word “unamerican” slip in there anywhere?

I would be curious about the spokespeople on the teabag side: I wonder how many have state jobs? OK to pay those taxes, I guess. Or to spend them anyway.

Comment from Emmy
Time: April 16, 2009, 7:13 am

“If criticism is good enough for the print media then it’s good enough for the “new” media. Doing it as a hobby shouldn’t be an excuse for reporting poorly researched or incorrect info.”

Fine, could you please point out an example of that from this blog?

Comment from republitarian
Time: April 16, 2009, 7:53 am

This is truly pathetic…..watching both sides try to spin and blame the other side.

They are ALL TO BLAME. If both sides would admit that then many problems could be fixed.

The republicans and democrats have party structures that are designed for you to kiss someone’s rear until it’s time for someone to kiss your’s.

This breeds greed and corruption.

It is treasonous to have put our country in so much debt….and THEY ARE ALL GUILTY.

Comment from JGFitzgerald
Time: April 16, 2009, 8:08 am

Thank God, and Madison, that treason is defined by the constitution and common law, and not by bloggers. Else Texas Gov. Rick Perry might be in the dock this morning.

Comment from Lowell
Time: April 16, 2009, 8:29 am

O.K. I’m looking forward to the ideas for positive direction that I’m sure are just bubbling beneath the surface here.

Josh, I’m not meaning to be critical of these folk’s desire to express their political views on the Courthouse lawn, I applaud their doing so. I do kind of wish these same folks had started paying attention and caring deeply before the economy went over the cliff though.

Comment from republitarian
Time: April 16, 2009, 8:57 am

The first thing that needs to be done is put tax day about 2 weeks before election day.

Second thing that needs to be done is a complete overhaul of the tax code.

Third thing is to put troops on the border.

Comment from seth
Time: April 16, 2009, 8:58 am

““If criticism is good enough for the print media then it’s good enough for the “new” media. Doing it as a hobby shouldn’t be an excuse for reporting poorly researched or incorrect info.”

Fine, could you please point out an example of that from this blog?”

:)

emmy,
please see the email i sent yesterday.

Comment from cook
Time: April 16, 2009, 9:26 am

The flikr pictures don’t capture, of course, all the honking from passing cars who appeared to be supportive but not participating in the rally. I work with a window on Court Square. Leaders who disagree with the message of the protesters would be ill-advised to disregard or to discount what happened yesterday.

Comment from Lowell
Time: April 16, 2009, 9:32 am

I couldn’t attend Cook, what was the message yesterday? Seems rather mixed from what I’ve been reading.

Comment from Emmy
Time: April 16, 2009, 9:41 am

Seth I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Comment from seth
Time: April 16, 2009, 9:49 am

ok.
i won’t push this off topic if you won’t encourage me to.

Comment from cook
Time: April 16, 2009, 9:53 am

Lowell, you are exactly right to point out inconsistencies with the position taken by your opponents. Perhaps as party chairman you feel the need to be the pit bull, and perhaps feigning confusion is part of your strategy. That’s cool. But at the end of the day you too are opposed to borrowing from our great-great-grandchildren to _______(fill in the blank here with anything you think might be appropriate)_______. The point of my comment was not to argue with you about the clarity of yesterday’s message. The point was to say that discounting or disregarding yesterday’s protest IMHO would be a wrong strategy. Apparently you and I disagree about that.

Comment from Lowell
Time: April 16, 2009, 10:36 am

My question to you was sincere Cook, I’ve had a number of folks ask me directly what the protesters are actually protesting.

I have read, I have watched video interviews, I have watched videos of actual tea party get togethers, and I’m not sure what to tell folks when they ask.

I don’t think we disagree about discounting the protest Cook, leaders/representatives should always pay attention.

So again, I wasn’t trying to argue with you, I consider you one of the sane folks, mostly, and was asking you a sincere question. I apologize for my lack of clarity.

Comment from Bubby Hussein, Hillbilly Sheikh
Time: April 16, 2009, 10:36 am

Well, they have taxation with representation so it can’t have anything to do with the original Boston tea party.

They all just had their Federal tax reduced under the ARRA legislation.

Many of them look to be old enough to be collecting socialist Social Security and Medicare, and most likely drove in on the socialist Interstate Highway System…so it can’t be about socialism.

And now that we have an honest Federal budget (with spending for Bush’s war, medicare, rebating the Alt.Minimum Tax, and interest on Bush’s debt included) our hole is $2.7 trillion deeper…so it can’t be about transparency or some sneaky Obama conspiracy.

What we have here are a bunch of angry, sore losers who got the cattle-call from their Fox Tee Vee box as a test by FreedomWorks, the American Family Association and a host of billionaire drovers to see if the implants were still operational and functioning. I don’t see a message beyond the orchestrated howling of the doomed.

Comment from cook
Time: April 16, 2009, 11:09 am

Flipping through a few of the photos on flickr, I’d say the message intended to be communicated by yesterday’s rally included the following: “Taxed Enough Already”; “You cannot spend your way out of debt”; “Stimulate Business not Government”; “No economic stimulus’; “Liberty is all the stimulus we need”; “Just say no to socialism”; “I want my country back”; and something about “Beltway Pirates.”

Comment from seth
Time: April 16, 2009, 11:13 am

i’ll agree that it’s orchestrated howling. i think it’s pretty clear that the message is they don’t have faith in the current stimulus plan/implementation of national healthcare/god knows whatever else was in there to turn things around. given the way things continue to look, i’d say it may not be entirely fair or wise to simply write these folks off as sore losers.

as to being doomed, careful with your predictions. november is coming soon.

Comment from Deb SF
Time: April 16, 2009, 1:48 pm

Cook writes ” Leaders who disagree with the message of the protesters would be ill-advised to disregard or to discount what happened yesterday.”

Maybe. A new Gallup Poll finds 61% of Americans saying they regard the income taxes they have to pay this year as fair. There has been very little change on this measure in the last six years.

And 48% of Americans saying the amount of federal income taxes they pay is “about right,” with 46% saying “too high” — one of the most positive assessments Gallup has measured since 1956. Typically, a majority of Americans say their taxes are too high, and relatively few say their taxes are too low. http://www.gallup.com/poll/117433/Views-Income-Taxes-Among-Positive-1956.aspx

Seems like for now, opinion is moving in the opposite direction of the tea partiers. My taxes, for example, pay for pirate-killing SEAL snipers. This makes me happy.

I think that the tea-bag/tea-party folks are doing the same thing that Obama supporters were accused of doing last year; using tea-parties as a vessel in which to pour their own fears and desires and, yes, hopes. These folks are coming to terms with the fact that they are a social minority. Shades of the 70’s; Nixon’s Silent Majority will become the Silent Minority if they’re not watchful, and you can’t influence anyone if you stay quiet. They know they have to make noise. This is one way.

There’s a sense of alienation, too, for lots of people in this movement. The busted economy, the loss of the sugar-high pleasure of buying and having. Cheated of a sense of security, of a society that you can count on, a feeling of a continuity of shared societal values that your kids and grandkids can depend on. High risks, lower income and wealth, uncertain future.

I don’t doubt that real grass is growing under this astroturf.

Comment from Megan
Time: April 16, 2009, 2:16 pm

Deb says
“Maybe. A new Gallup Poll finds 61% of Americans saying they regard the income taxes they have to pay this year as fair. ”

No wonder when over 43% don’t pay any federal income tax at all.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/15/politics/otherpeoplesmoney/main4945874.shtml

Comment from JGFitzgerald
Time: April 16, 2009, 3:09 pm

Stats are stats. Our household paid 15-20 percent of its income in federal income tax in tax year 2008. However, two members of the household (the college student and the airman) got a full refund. So fifty percent of the members of the household paid no taxes. It belabors the point to say that the stat is pulled out of context. Go here, http://www.cbpp.org/, and read for a while — a long while — if you want to understand some of the complexities of the tax code, or of government in general. Or go here, http://baselinescenario.com/, to learn about the loans being classed as “bailouts.” (Memo to those citing the Chrysler “bailout” way back when: Chrysler paid it back.)

Forty-three percent don’t pay taxes? In the immortal words of Dick Cheney, “So?”

Comment from Jeremy Aldrich
Time: April 16, 2009, 3:56 pm

So Megan, do you think we should move towards “no representation without taxation”?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but judging by the demographics of the crowd yesterday I would guess at least 43 percent of them received more in government handouts (like Social Security and disability) than they are paying in taxes this year. And beyond that, I’ll bet at least 95% of them have seen their personal tax burden decline this year, because it didn’t look like there were very many $250k+ earners in the crowd.

Comment from Deb SF
Time: April 16, 2009, 4:18 pm

Megan, though income that a difference between “too high” and “just right”views — political preference matters, too. 58% of Democrats think their taxes are about right or too low, while 53% of Republicans think their taxes are too high.

And, for the zillionth time, people who don’t pay federal income tax still pay taxes of all sorts, regressive ones that aren’t linked to income. Even the Fair Tax and the Flat tax folks get that.

As the survey puts it, “As the remaining U.S. tax filers prepare to send their income-tax returns before the April 15 deadline, Gallup finds Americans’ views of their federal income taxes about as positive as at any point in the last 60 years.” Tea-party People appear to be a very vocal, very minor minority. At least for now.

Comment from Barkley Rosser
Time: April 16, 2009, 4:25 pm

One thing that struck me about these protests around the country (I have no specific info about the local one beyond this post and the comments) is how incoherent they are. Just what is it they are for or against? There are these vague complaints about too much taxes, although Obama is cutting taxes for the majority of people, and I guess opposition to the stimulus, although most of it is temporary and going away in a few years. So, what else?

One very serious problem is that large numbers of people are massively ignorant. Several years ago a poll was taken that found that something like 45% of the population thought that the largest items in the federal budget were either foreign aid or welfare. The former amounts to about $12 billion while the latter to about $26 billion, or did at that time. Meanwhile defense and social security are over $700 billion, or something like that. If you are really going to cut federal government spending a lot, then you have to cut one of those two big time, or else medicare or medicaid. Nothing else exceeds $100 billion, except interest on the national debt, which cannot be cut. So, which of these will it be? I did not see or hear out of any of these protests any push for any of these.

Republitarian,

As a matter of fact I would like to see a strong move to tax simplification (I am not sure what you mean by an “overhaul,” again, a lot of rhetoric but no specifics out there). I was disappointed that Bush did not imitate Reagan and make a move to simplify the tax code in his second term. He probably could have done it. The code has this tendency to creep towards ever greater complexity, a Christmas tree with ever more goodies for ever more special interest groups, and so from time to time we need a president to come in and whack a lot of that stuff off, which can be done politically because one can lower rates if one has fewer of these loopholes, which Reagan did in 1986, with a revenue neutral change that lowered the top rate from 50% to 28%. That was supported by many Democrats, by the way, and the original politicians who supported this were Dems, Bradley and Gephardt, although it has tended to be more supported in recent years by Republicans. In any case, I did hear that Obama may be open to something along these lines.

Oh, and putting troops on the border? Were you aware that costs money, which kind of goes against what is supposedly being pushed by all these tea baggers? This is a good example of the sort of incoherence that the events seem to signify, quite aside from all the calls for secession and bizarre hats and goofy signs.

Comment from Barkley Rosser
Time: April 16, 2009, 5:08 pm

Oh, regarding DebSF’s last point, the largest tax paid by more than 75% of the US population is the social security tax, the fica, which is highly regressive, not the federal income tax, although it does collect more revenue than does the fica.

Comment from Barnabas
Time: April 17, 2009, 12:17 am

I hope that this change makes a difference. I do not feel comfortable with the tax proposals, but I have no reason other than that it is indeed a change from what was. If the stimulus package does not work as it is supposed to, I believe that our country can find it’s feet avoiding a fall into chaos. We as a people but not all of us as individuals have allowed our economy to get to where it is. As a generation that feels entitled to having everything they want now and paying for it later I believe Gen X is largely to blame, my generation. There were not enough smart home buyers that could see the through the adjustable rate mortgages as a curse and not a blessing. Our generation has not earned the America our Grandfathers built. And while Obama wants to get us back on even ground it is still up to us to make better choices.
So with our without the stimulus in place, we need spend and invest wisely. Do what you can to ease the suffering of those around you, but most importantly do not add to that suffering.

Comment from Bubby
Time: April 17, 2009, 10:32 am

There is no need for you to take our current troubles upon the shoulders of any one generation Barnabas – we are truly in this together. That is the sentiment that I heard most often last fall during the Senate and Presidential campaign: Change and Unity, moving away from the way things were being done. I heard that from Independents, Republicans, and Democrats alike.

That is what is so disappointing about these continuing protests, electoral challenges, and disrespectful displays of contempt for the will of the people – we have a bunch of folks who didn’t get the message, or are in denial about the outcome. There is real work to do and America needs to unite and move forward.

Comment from seth
Time: April 17, 2009, 10:47 am

i’m not dissapointed. dissent is patriotic (remember?) and while you may not agree with the muddled masses, there are legitimate objections being voiced. if things don’t work out as the current administration expects, i doubt if the ‘people’ will be so quick to say that their will dictated the stimulus as enacted or any other retroactively unfavorable policies pursued by the obama administration.

Comment from Lowell
Time: April 17, 2009, 11:00 am

I’m sorry Seth, where did Bubby call anyone muddled masses?

Perhaps I missed it?

And Barnabas, I was going to write the same type of response to you as did Bubby, I just got caught up in the day and forgot…

Your message is well considered and well penned, thank you!

Working together, anything is possible…

Comment from seth
Time: April 17, 2009, 11:14 am

my categorization, not bubby’s

too bad you guys weren’t on board 8 years ago
:)

Comment from Lowell
Time: April 17, 2009, 11:34 am

on board eight years ago?

Comment from seth
Time: April 17, 2009, 11:39 am

with the working together….

Comment from Lowell
Time: April 17, 2009, 11:46 am

You must not have been aware of my work on the school board or when I ran for state office twice Seth. But you must also understand my young friend, your side’s idea of working together has been their way or nothing at all. It’s why I ran to start with.

Comment from Frankie Boy
Time: April 17, 2009, 2:28 pm

“your side’s idea of working together has been their way or nothing at all”…yeah Lowell, we musta forgot, thanks for showing us the way.

Comment from Lowell
Time: April 18, 2009, 9:07 am

You’re certainly welcome Frank.

Pingback from hburgnews.com » Rally Against Obama’s Health Plan
Time: July 31, 2009, 3:50 pm

[...] For Prosperity Virginia, the conservative PAC instrumental in the organization of the Tea Party protests, stopped in Harrisonburg today. But the purpose of this visit wasn’t taxes or tea. [...]