Bill would allow concealed guns in restaurants
Alex Sirney -- March 6th, 2010
The Virginia Senate passed a bill Tuesday that would remove the restrictions prohibiting gun owners with concealed carry licenses from carrying in restaurants and would allow police officers to drink while carrying.
The current law forbids concealed carry in restaurants, though it allows guns to be carried openly. It is legal to drink while carrying openly, though intoxication is illegal for all citizens. Senate Bill 334, referred to as the “Guns-in-bars” bill, would change that to allow concealed carry in restaurants, though forbidding those carrying concealed firearms from drinking. The bill will amend Section 18.2-308 of the Code of Virginia (deletions are struck out and additions are in bold):
JJ3. No person shall carry who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in Section 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; however, nothing herein may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises. A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club and consumes alcoholic beverages is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. ?[ A person who becomes intoxicated while carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such a restaurant or club is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. ?] ?However, nothing in this subsection shall prohibit any sworn apply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer. [ or any retired law-enforcement officer who meets the definition of a "qualified retired law-enforcement officer" pursuant to 18 U.S.C. ? 926C and is carrying the identification required by such statute? ] . from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.
Local restaurant owners and managers reacted with caution to the change in the law, expressing concerns over enforcement and safety.
“Personally, I think it’s a bad idea to allow citizens [with concealed weapons] into places where people are consuming alcohol,” Sean Pugh, co-owner of the Joshua Wilton House, said. “It’s a bad idea.” Pugh is active in the Downtown Dining Alliance, and said that they have not yet discussed the implications of the law.
“I want to believe that [the law] will not affect anything. People are generally aware of their level of safety and we [at the Artful Dodger] feel that we provide that,” Clark said.
Arafaine said, “I don’t know how much it will change in practice. Unless you do something, no one will even know you have [a concealed gun].”
“I don’t think people will react to it unless there’s an incident.”
Neither Arafaine nor Clark anticipated adding any additional security measures beyond what they have currently in place. Neither has had any serious incidents with customers carrying guns, though both have asked patrons to leave in different circumstances. They both said the change would increase the need for staff to be more aware of who was in the restaurant.
The question of security is tied closely to the law’s enforcement.
“I think the biggest problem is enforcing it. What’s stopping any person from bringing a gun into a bar right now?” Craig Moore, owner of the Local Chop and Grill House, said. “How do you know someone with a concealed gun is drinking?”
“You’ve got to be caught to enforce it.”
He said that he would not be searching patrons because it is “a tremendous invasion of privacy.”
“I hope this doesn’t lead to other things where the burden is on the establishment,” Moore said. Arafaine expressed similar sentiments.
“The burden is on the restaurant and it should be on the person,” she said.
Philip Van Cleave, president of the Virginia Citizen’s Defense League, Inc., a gun rights lobbying group, said that the security concerns aren’t anything new or different.
“Restaurant owners always have the trespass onus on them,” he said, calling the security issue a trespass issue at its root. “It’s nothing unusual.”
According to Van Cleave, Virginia banned concealed carry in restaurants in 1995, and with the passage of this bill would join approximately 40 states that currently allow concealed carry in restaurants and bars.
This bill will give restaurant owners more options, Van Cleave said. He has had experiences where, as the holder of a concealed gun license, he has had to carry openly in restaurants to comply with the current law. He sees this as potentially distracting to other customers, and has been asked to conceal his gun by restaurant owners, which he legally had to refuse to do.
“This empowers restaurant owners to make their own policy,” he said.
His focus on the law’s application was on scenarios where license holders were dining in restaurants. He said late-night drinking scenarios were unlikely.
“One can sit down and picture all kinds of things that could happen, but we have to look at practice,” he said. “Are permit holders going into that environment in practice? I don’t think so.”
“One should not strip away our freedoms because of what might happen.”
Lori Haas, spokesperson for the Virginia Center for Public Safety, a pro gun control lobby group, argued strongly against the bill.
“Guns and alcohol don’t mix,” she said. “A small, vocal group of gun owners wants any gun, any time.” She also expressed concerns about enforcement and said that the VCPS supports responsible gun ownership and gun control laws.
“Restrictions are not mutually exclusive with the second amendment,” she said.
Both supporters and detractors will soon take a back seat to reality, however, once Gov. McDonnell signs the bill into law as expected. What reaction can we expect from the Harrisonburg community once the law goes into effect?
Note: Local gun rights activist and NRA member Jon Ritenour, representatives from Jack Brown’s, Finnigan’s Cove, Clementine, Dave’s Taverna, the Downtown Dining Alliance, the Virginia Hospitality and Travel Association and the Harrisonburg Police Department were unavailable for comment as of posting. Update expected early next week.
Tags: ABC, bars, guns, restaurants, Virginia
Good article!
I think people with licenses should be able to carry their concealed weapon anywhere, but being allowed to drink while carrying is another matter… just sounds like a bad idea.
Renee, the ONLY people allowed to drink in a restaurant that serves alcohol are police officers and prosecutors…and the prosecutors aren’t required to have any firearms training to carry a concealed handgun…and the only weapon you can carry concealed, in Virginia, is a handgun.
The only time I can recall problems in Virginia restaurants is when off-duty DEA agents shot up a restaurant somewhere in the Commonwealth.
This is a lot better that having to openly carry a handgun into a restaurant so some drunk, angry liberal could take off someone.
And what Virginia businesses should be REQUIRED to do, if they don’t want concealed handguns in their establishments, is to post a 2 x 3-foot sign with specific, codified language saying “no handguns allowed”, otherwise, these businesses ride on the coattails of those businesses allowing possession.
See Texas Penal Code 30.06:
http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/30.06.00.html
I just don’t understand why someone would need to carry their gun into a bar/restaurant. This whole Idea of being dirty harry and stopping some potential crime is ludicrous. I think people get off on having their gun on them, it has nothing to do with safety.
MF,
One reason could be… the person who is carrying the hand gun is a sissy and feels SAFE or TUFF with the gun on them.
A sissy? Really? Let’s at least try to stay away from conjecture and name calling.
While we’re at it, liberals aren’t the only people who go shooting random people.
There really isn’t a need that I can see for anyone to carry a handgun into a restaurant. I don’t enjoy the idea of my kids and I dining next to someone with a weapon whether they are carrying it legally or not.
MF, Emmy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby%27s_massacre
Join the VCDL list…they routinely have stories where people might not have been victimized, if they could have been in legal possession of a handgun.
Bandit, you’re calling people “tuff” and “sissy” while you have hidden behind your pseudonym of Bandit for years?
Senator Hanger wasted a lot of time and taxpayer money making this his most recent “signature” piece of legislation. Shoot the mice and let the elephants run by, Emmett!
I can tell you that I will walk out of a restaurant where they allow customers, other than law enforcement, to carry a handgun. Why does anyone need to carry a gun in a restaurant? Why?? This is just insane. I’m guessing this makes our local forces extremely nervous…it would me. So….if you restaurants allow this….I won’t eat there. Ever.
I agree Christa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ysidro_McDonald%27s_massacre
I personally don’t want anyone carrying concealed handguns anywhere. However, since our laws allow some people to get licenses to carry, I’m just imagining it would be silly for an off-duty cop to have to leave his/her handgun in the car just because he/she was going into a restaurant instead of say, a mall. (Are they already allowed to carry their guns everywhere but restaurants/bars in VA?)
But I think anyone, even a cop, to have a gun on them while drinking alcohol is a really bad idea.
Off-duty law enforcement have always been able to bring their weapons into alcohol-serving restaurants — and drink as much as they want.
NO ONE needs to carry a gun when drinking. No one.
I suppose the law is fair to those who have legal licenses. I don’t particularly agree with the provision for police officers, but I’m not entirely against it.
The one thing I can say though, is any restaurant that is willing to ban firearms and post a sign to inform customers, they will get my business over other restaurants. I don’t want to infringe on someone’s rights, but I feel much safer when concealed guns are not around me.
Maybe Harrisonburg will be like this someday soon? :)
http://rlv.zcache.com/wild_west_saloon_arizona_check_guns_cigarette_tshirt-p235532593430101006qw9y_400.jpg
I think, perhaps, I’ll take a formal survey of our local restaurants and what there policy is and will be.
Justin -
One comment Lori Haas made to me was that the message a lot of those signs around town would send to out-of-state visitors is that it the area or state is not safe or has a gun problem.
Several -
My understanding is that police officers will now be able to drink with concealed firearms, whereas before they had to carry openly, and that this was changed so as not to inhibit undercover work.
Could WHSV not find a better (more informed) person to interview about this issue than the Glory Days hostess?
Alex, your understanding is incorrect. Police officers and prosecutors have been able to drink with concealed handguns, even prior to the repeal of this law.
Dave,
I have read various stories about people who think they could have stopped a situation. I have also read stories of Cops being murdered/injured in situations because they drew their fire arm when some one had the drop on them.
There is NO real way to determine if someone would be able to stop victimization if they had a gun on them. People can have their inner Dirty Harry tell them that they could have stopped something from happening if they just had their trusty side arm. But in reality there is way too many variables to determine if a side arm would help or hinder a violent situation. Like the nerves of the person behind the gun, IF THEY ARE SOBER, If they have good aim, if the perpetrator has the drop on them, could the perp be wearing body armor, could the perp be behind something that would stop a bullet, could the perp even have a loaded/ real gun, could the gun malfunction.
Sure, there is the whole premise that if a perp sees someone else with a gun they will back off. But most people desperate or deranged enough to pull a gun on someone for a crime will probably fire first before thinking a situation out.
Point being, if you’re drunk you’ll help NO ONE in a violent situation with a gun. Your more likely to get you, or someone else killed.
Yes, MF, but you’re basing your assumptions on two positions, I believe to be flawed:
1. Your desire not have no weapons in restaurants that serve alcohol, totally preclude anybody from being to protect themselves against a “perp”.
2. Your belief that anyone with a concealed handgun permit, values taking a drink ABOVE keeping their permit, which is likely NOT supported in statistics in those states where this is already permitted.
Under the law, it doesn’t matter is a gun is “fake” or even loaded (see § 18.2-282, Brandishing a Firearm)…all you need to believe is that the weapon is real….and most people I know with even a minimal amount of training, let alone military or law enforcement training, would aim center of mass whether it be the thorax or the head and fire multiple rounds.
MF, I completely agree with you.
Not to mention a few of the people I know who have a concealed weapons permit are not people I wish to ever have their hands on a gun and it is pretty scary that they’re legally allowed to carry it around.
“2. Your belief that anyone with a concealed handgun permit, values taking a drink ABOVE keeping their permit, which is likely NOT supported in statistics in those states where this is already permitted.”
Ok so again whats the point in letting someone bring a gun into a bar? If they are not going to drink. That just sounds creepy to me, someone sitting sober at a bar with a gun just to see if anything goes down so they can use lethal force.
I am supposed to just trust a person with a concealed weapons permit? Like they are holier then thou, a super citizen who does nothing wrong? Even police officers screw up in huge ways, and they carry guns everyday! I trust no one, especially some one that went threw all that trouble to be able to pack heat in this area.
Most people? Dave you are still not taking into account the variables. Seriously I think you have a Dirty Harry movie playing in your head. Have you ever had a gun pulled on you? You don’t turn into a super hero when something like that happens. You may be lucky to even get the gun out of your holster, if someone has a gun pointed at you. Fear is an overpowering force, and it will overpower aim and any other basic motor skill.
And as far as the law goes. Great, you won’t be charged with killing someone who had a fake gun. Hope you sleep easy for the rest of your life knowing that if you hadn’t had a gun on you that person would have been alive.
Excuse my bad grammar, I’m a product of public schools har har.
Once, again, MF, there are no TRUE bars in Virginia, so any “bar” necessarily serves food.
And yes, MF, when I was a police officer some 20 years ago, I had a handgun pulled on me. I never had to draw my weapon because I had a Canine with me that didn’t like someone drawing a weapon on me.
I was stabbed in the right should be a woman who didn’t like us restraining the husband she was beating the crap out of, either. Once again, my dog subdued her.
It’s not your bad grammar that you should blame government schools on, it’s your overly-strong paranoia of anyone exercising their Constitutional right to bear arms to protect themselves.
You keep jumping through hoops so quickly that you fail to address the logic, and consistent, failings of your own flawed arguments.
Not to beat a dead horse, but I would also like to point out the following.
Christopher Bryan Speight: The man that killed his entire family in Appomattox Va. Had a concealed permit in the state of VA.
Michael McClendon: Killed 11 people on a rampage. Had a concealed permit in the state of AL.
Paul Michael Merhige: Killed four relatives at Thanksgiving dinner last year. Had a concealed permit in the state of FL.
Troy Brake: Committed rape and attempted murder with a weapon. Had a concealed permit in the state of in MI.
William Maxwell: Killed his wife and two kids. Had a concealed permit in the state of NC.
Thats just a few that I could find with a quick search. Sure these are just a few, but there are more I didn’t even post. Can’t say I trust anyone with a concealed permit after finding these.
Hmmm, MF, none of these cases you cite have absolutely anything to do with a restaurant serving alcohol…so you’ve named ONE in Virginia, and I believe there may be FIVE having committed felony offenses involving handguns with Virginia permits, out of about 214,000 with Virginia permits and countless others living in Virginia with resident/non-resident permits of other states, and you trust NONE of them.
To me this indicates you have, perhaps, an issue with paranoia.
I suggest you compare and contrast the crime rates of Virginia, compared with our neighbor, the federal enclave of Washington, DC, notoriously anti-gun.
Dave, people who don’t believe you should be able to carry a gun all over the place are NOT paranoid. Quite the opposite in fact. I think it makes more sense to assume people who feel the need to carry a gun with them everywhere they go are the paranoid ones.
I see no logic in your argument, just movie star heroics. Can you please find in these cases were it says these people were not drunk when they committed those crimes.
Here is the point I was trying to make by posting those people. You act as if someone that has gone through a training coarse to have a concealed weapon is some trusted citizen that would never do anything to endanger anyone. I am showing you that they are capable of crimes like everyone else. So how am I supposed to believe you when you say that someone with a permit would never drink. Everyone is human, even if you have a gun permit.
I think the paranoid people are anyone that needs to carry a gun on them in this town. If you lived in South East DC, I could understand that. But the chances of needing a gun in a bar/restaurant in Harrisonburg Va to protect yourself are about zero. Its not about protection its about machismo.
And yes I know full well there aren’t any bars in the state of VA, I work in a bar here in Harrisonburg. Thats why I am not too excited about someone I’m trying to kick out having a legal gun on them.
That should say bar/restaurant.
Oh, you work in a bar and everyone portrayed in the media is assumed to be drunk unless the media states they are not.
Why not tell us all which one…I’ll do my best to ensure that nobody with a concealed carry permit darkens your door so your worrying will be minimized.
Perhaps we shouldn’t trust you not to overindulge in your owner’s stock after hours and kill a wife and mother on your way home in a drunken stupor? After all, she worked in a bar/restaurant, too.
I’m with Christa. Except I’ll look for the No-Guns notice on the door before I enter a restaurant. I believe that a few big-dollar civil suits related to bystander wounding/killing will effectively make all alcohol-serving establishments prohibit entry to gun toters. Selling a few drinks and meals to NRA types won’t be worth it. And when the cops show up to escort trespassers to the door, there is going to be arrests, and a related drop-off in permit carriers. This gun rights stuff has gone a bridge too far.
This is a very interesting article and piece of legislation. I’d be interested in knowing more of the “why’s” behind this law change. It seems like a lot of heat from both supporters and opponents over a law that maybe changes very little. Though I am not thrilled about the idea of there being less barriers to people carrying weapons, it seems that this legislation does very little.
I think it is important for members of our community to be aware of these types of changes and have thoughtful, respectful conversations about our concerns. I’m disappointed to see how quickly the responses to this article became personal banter.
Again, I’m interested in some of the potential reasonings behind these changes. If anyone knows of the ideas (from our representatives) for/against this legislation I’d be interested in knowing.
Bubby, this is a REPEAL of a law banning guns in restaurants that serve alcohol, which means that it used to be permitted.
There is no requirement that a sign be posted on the door of an establishment which chooses to exercise its property rights and ban the possession of handguns. Instead, I doubt you’ll see any signs while those owners ride the coattails of establishments which have no problem with handguns in their restaurants.
Dave; Currently, if I’m a nightclub owner I know who is legally armed (open carry) and am protected from concealed carriers by a law that says entry is unlawful. period. I make an accurate, informed judgment and DO NOT serve an armed person.
With this new law I really don’t know who is carrying so my attorney or trade group inform me that because of liability issues it is important to post my establishment – NO TRESPASSING FOR ARMED PERSONS. Then when some screw up shoots up the place, I join the suit with the plaintiff under the protection of unlawful trespass.
Bottom line – gun owner freedom is diminished by this law. They have played right into the hands of liability law and the legitimate protections thereof.
Growing up in the Valley I know the rules when target shooting or hunting, no beer! When I want a drink I prefer to drink with unarmed friends at bars that feel the same way. If my watering holes do not post the above no trespassing warnings if this law gets repealed then I’ll be changing venues.
There’s nothing in the repeal legislation that mandates the posting of any sign…I merely suggested that anti-gun businesses SHOULD BE REQUIRED to make such a posting.
Too bad the GA couldn’t look at a law like this and ask who it would affect, that is, who would want to carry a gun into a bar. The comments in this thread alone could help give the answer, and the answer would easily sway the vote.
Yeah, Joe. All of the points you guys have made are so logically consistent that it could not be anything but what the collective balance of voters in the Commonwealth hold as their beliefs.
I mean, using MF for an example…his stereotyping was so broad that when I pointing out that we shouldn’t trust him not to kill a jogger on the way home because of a drunken binge a person working at a bar would likely bring on, either he or she dropped out of this exercise.
People with concealed handguns by and large represent a threat to no one…after all Joe, you stopped and chatted with me on JMU while I was carrying my 44 magnum and you survived the conversation. :-)
I appreciate the clarification on the law regarding sworn law enforcement, though my understanding is that this change will allow them to drink while carrying concealed firearms, whereas before they were required to carry openly.
It should also be noted that carrying a firearm on JMU’s campus – concealed or openly – is illegal (excepting law enforcement, of course).
I’m interested in whether more people will change their behavior based on this change, or if this will sink into a non-issue. I’ll hopefully have some comments from the HPD and the Virginia Hospitality and Travel Association this evening.
Well, Alex. You’re wrong about this law which is being repealed to only now permit law enforcement to drink…the current law has provided for that so, clearly, your understanding of both the present law and the legislation providing for the repeal and reenactment of the current law ain’t great.
You’re also WRONG about the legality of carrying firearms on JMU’s campus. You have no basis in law to make such an assertion, and I have both Virginia law and two Attorney General’s Opinions to substantiate my position.
I also sued JMU over the illegal weapons policy and upon being given assurance by the campus police chief that he couldn’t enforce JMU’s illegal policy against those who legally could carry concealed, I dropped the law suit. It should also be noted that because JMU’s policy is illegal, the Office of the Attorney General fired JMU as a client.
Here’s the Opinion, likely written during Kilgore’s tenure as A.G., but published by Bob McDonnell:
http://www.vaag.com/OPINIONS/2006opns/05-078.pdf
Actually, Alex, let me reverse myself as the Lexis view is much easier to digest that the Legislative Information System view.
The current law allows the possession of a concealed handgun by law enforcements officers in “bars”, however, as I believe you stated, this repeal provides that, cops may drink now while in possession of a concealed handgun. Before they could still drink but the way the law is currently written, the could drink if openly carried.
I think we can each take “partial credit”. :-)
Carrying on public colleges is still legal in Virginia, with the probably exceptions of GMU and VCU, which have placed their policies into the Virginia Administrative Code…however, GMU’s policy I believe is not before the Supreme Court of Virginia.
Dave –
Thank you for your clarification. I’d be interested in the text of the law (link) to which you’re referring. My understanding is what it is – that’s why it’s nice to have the format we do at hburgnews, where people with a deeper background in a topic can post and correct issues.
I am aware of your long-running series of discussions with JMU about the legality of its weapon policy and was speaking only from the standpoint that JMU policy expressly forbids firearms. Perhaps it’s better to drop this line and return to the “guns in restaurants” discussion for the time being.
JMU’s policy is a policy…it doesn’t render an act legal or illegal unless their policy conforms to Virginia law. JMU’s policy doesn’t conform to Virginia law.
You can label me pro-gun rights, but if I was a bar owner a decision to post my establish as “No Guns” would be a smart business decision. And I would enforce it with zero tolerance to establish my due diligence. This law is yet another burden on Virginia businesses.
I don’t see it as being a burden on a business…just put a sign up saying “no guns”.
Just don’t expect your business not to show up on a list, like this:
http://www.vcdl.org/static/gue.html
I’m in the restaurant business not the gun lobby business. But I appreciate the free advertisement for my Zero-Tolerance policy! It pretty much makes your willful trespassing charge an easy win in court. :) This stuff brings new risk of injury and litigation, it will raise insurance costs for business owners.
Well, Bubby. Why not tell us which restaurant is yours? I’ll pass it along to the VCDL as a gun-unfriendly business and they’ll pass it along to all of their members?
I support and lobbied for this law.
There is no reason my right to protect myself and my loved ones should end at the restaurant door. Any restaurant I’m going to want to take my family to is going to serve wine or beer of some sort. The CCW owners I know are responsible and I would rather have them carrying instead of the ones who are currently carrying concealed in restaurants – criminals.
Many ( most?) states allow some form of carry in restaurants, including neighboring West Virginia. There is always some hand wringing when any state purposes a concealed carry permit, but the predicted “blood bathes” and “old west shoot outs” just never materialize. Violent crime rates have decreased as carry permits have increased.
All that logic aside, I’m getting a permit to protect myself and my family. It’s that simple. The chances are pretty low that something will happen to you. BUT if you are that 1 in 10,000 the fact that your attack, rape, or murder is a statistical oddity is not going to be a comfort to you. It’s rather demeaning to us who are just trying to keep our families safe to be called, “Dirty Harry”.