McDonnell: I Can’t Support DREAM Act

Brent Finnegan -- August 27th, 2010

The DREAM Act is a piece of proposed federal immigration legislation currently stalled out U.S. Congress, but an immigrant from Harrisonburg pushed Virginia’s chief executive to take a public stance on the bill Thursday night.

At the assembly in which McDonnell promoted his plan to privatize Virginia’s ABC stores, the governor also fielded questions on a wide array of topics ranging from climate change to mountaintop removal to Chesapeake Bay cleanup regulations.

One of the last questions of the evening came from Isabel Castillo regarding McDonnell’s stance on the DREAM Act. If the name sounds familiar, you may have read about her protest and arrest in D.C. last month

Castillo, who entered the U.S. when she was six, rattled off an impressive list of scholastic accomplishments before hitting McDonnell and the assembly with, “but I’m undocumented.”

Watch video of the exchange between Castillo and McDonnell.

Her voice shaking, she posed a question to the governor: “Would you support legislation such as the DREAM Act so that young people like myself can work legally, so we can use the degrees that we have, and attend colleges in Virginia, where our parents live, work and pay taxes?”

Castillo was looking for an endorsement similar to Harrisonburg City Council’s statement of unanimous support for the proposed federal legislation in February.

McDonnell commended Castillo for her accomplishments, and addressed the larger issues of border security and comprehensive immigration reform at the federal level, adding that he has “very little authority to do much in terms of enforcing the federal immigration law” as governor of Virginia.

When Castillo pressed McDonnell for his support, he responded, “No, I can’t. Because what that basically does is look the other way, not support the law, and it allows someone who is illegally present to be given the same rights as a United States citizen.”

After the meeting, Castillo said she was disappointed, but not surprised at the response. “Coming in here, I knew that he was very conservative, and supported 287 (g). He said they need more people like me. Well, [the DREAM Act] is how he can keep us here.”

201 Responses to “McDonnell: I Can’t Support DREAM Act”

  1. John Bowman says:

    I think the Governor meant we need more people like you to take your top level US taxpayer paid education back to your home countries and improve them, as many others in your situation have already done, so that your fellow citizens will have less reason to illegally immigrate to the USA.

    That is certainly what the vast majority of Americans want.

    • anja asenjo says:

      For your information John, Isabel and many other DREAM Act eligible students have paid for their own education – no mean feat considering that most undocumented youth can’t get a fair wage OR instate tuition. It is exactly that caliber of person that the U.S. needs to regain its place in the world’s economy; motivated, hard working and highly able young people. Because whiners that look to place blame on minorities are certainly doing nothing for this country. PASS THE DREAM ACT NOW!!

      • John Bowman says:

        Americans paid for her primary education, and in California anyway where I live we pay 70% of illegal students college education, there are private scholarships that pay the remainder.

        We already have plenty of American citizen students who are hard working, motivated, and able, in fact so many in this era of high unemployment that some of them on graduation have to go to China to find a job. My nephew is one of them.

        If you knew anything about America you would know two of it’s founding tenents are rule of law and majority rule, both of which Isabel is violating.

        • Sayona says:

          John, because of people like you is that this country is being hated around the world. What makes you think that illegal immigrants don’t pay taxes? Stop repeating the same excuse “we pay for your education…” BS… they pay taxes and they don’t get any benefits back. The can’t have credit so they pay everything at front. Can you do that? I bet not… I feel sorry for people like you. There is a world outside of the boundaries of USA and people are as good, and watch if not better, that the American people…

      • John Bowman says:

        One more thing, illegal alien is not a race, it’s a crime.

        But since you bring up the subject of minorities, illegal immigration and the dream act have the greatest negative impact on American minorities, and on legal foreign students, 90% of whom are “non-white” (minority to you), all whom also despise the dream act. I personally know many foreign student applicants who have been denied because of all the illegal foreign students here. So who is actually the one blaming minorities? I think it is you.

      • Tod Jones says:

        The only way an Illegal Alien could pay for their own education is if they stole a job from someone that can LEGALLY work in the USA. These people have stolen their education from the American taxpayers and need to be punished for their crimes. The people to blame are their parents for bringing them here and our own government for not enforcing the laws. We need to start enforcing the law while we still have a country to defend. The dream act only rewards Illegals for breaking the law. The dream act is only a dream for Illegals, it is a nightmare for evere law abiding resident.

        • J. says:

          Actually Tod and John, you’re wrong. There are many undocumented immigrants who upon arrival apply and are given two official documents – id/license and an ITIN number. In case you don’t know this number is used by immigrants to pay taxes every year. So every year many undocumented immigrants pay taxes which pay for their children public schools among other things. However, none of them get the benefits of Social Security even after long years of hard work.

          Also, the private scholarships are exactly that, private. It is up to the private institution to decide who is worthy of getting the money. Besides you still have to fulfill other requirements such as certain GPA and community service to get these scholarships.

          The dream act is an excellent proposal because it allows for the brightest and most dedicated immigrants to attain legal status and contribute to society. This doesn’t mean every undocumented student is automatically going to become legal, only the ones that have already worked hard enough to get accepted into college and are willing to work hard once in college or are willing to fight for a country which is technically not theirs but wants it to. Also this doesn’t mean that if the dream act is passed every undocumented student is going to pay instate tuition wherever they go and get full rides. No. If anyone gets a full ride it’s because they have worked harder than mostly everyone and deserves it and not because some law passed saying that undocumented students can now go to college paying instate tuition.

          Of the many laws and bills that are proposed, THIS one actually makes sense and benefits the US…no wonder it’s taking a while to pass.

    • kyledeb says:

      John Bowman, if the U.S. loses it’s mantle as the most prosperous nation on Earth it will be in large part due to the views people like yourself hold. The U.S. is Isabel’s home whether you like it or not. It is the U.S.’s loss and the world’s gain if someone like Isabel is forced out of the country to contribute elsewhere. Lucky for people like you, Isabel will probably continue to fight to have her existence recognized in the only country she knows as her home, to enrich the U.S. in ways that you’re nativism never will.

      • John Bowman says:

        Actually both the US AND the world will gain if she returns to her country of origin. If she needs help adjusting get if from the people who wanted her parents here in the first place, the Ford Foundation, Soros Foundation, US Chamber of Commerce.

    • Rachel says:

      Actually, John, the numbers show that the vast majority of Americans favor a path to legalization for these super talented young people — AND their parents and aunts and uncles and cousins and grandparents and great-grandparents and neighbors who help clean and beautify our neighborhoods,etc

      • John Bowman says:

        The only path to legalization Americans support for illegal aliens is I-5 to Tijuana, I-35 to Nueva Loredo, Aer Lingus to Ireland, Air China to Beijing, KAL to Seoul, Varig to Rio, etc.

        SUPER talented young people can already get legal status in the USA, it’s called the E-1 visa. I personally know one lady from mainland China who learned Spanish, did her undergraduate work (BS Physics)in Mexico City, and was so talented she then learned English and obtained a US visa for her PhD degree, then an E-1 visa to work at JPL. Her name is Ying Feria.

        If you are super talented as you claim you could do the same thing.

  2. Hard Worker says:

    If someone is committed to staying here, shouldn’t she do her paperwork to do so legally? Maybe instead of arrogantly parading her “undocumented” status, she should get her “citizenship” status instead.

    • “Hard worker,” in this particular case, she came here when she was six. Or did you miss that part of the story?

      I was born in Southern California and lived there ’till I was six. I don’t have a whole lot of memories from that period of time. I’ve lived in Virginia since. Am I a Californian or a Virginian?

      A better question: since “we the taxpayers” have already paid for her primary education (she attended Turner Ashby High School) would our country be better served by keeping her here and letting her pay taxes, or sending her back?

      • John Bowman says:

        With our current and continuing high unemployment and budget deficits, the US would be better served by sending her back so she can help improve her home country. Consider the education we have already paid for a form of foreign aid.

        As for your case, if you moved back to California would you truly be totally unable to function and totally lost there? No, so the point you try to make is meaninless.

        • claire watson says:

          John Bowman,
          There is a difference between moving state to state and continent to continent. I agree that it may seem unfair to be giving them the same opportunity as American citizens, but what defines an American? This is a melting pot country. If you really think about it every one who migrated to the US from the past up until now did so for the many opportunities this country offers. Christopher columbus wasn’t trying to be “american” he stumbled upon here..the pilgrims weren’t trying to be “american” they were fleeing religious persecution. I do agree that a country has the right to have a set systematic policy. Now should the parents be punished? definitely,but these kids? NO. This country is all they know many of them don’t even realize they aren’t here legally until they try to get a license or ID. I support the dream act mainly because it’s not handing out green cards to every undocumented person, but to the ones who are willing to serve this country in the military or get a higher education which eventually fuels the economy and creates more jobs. Maybe you should look at the requirements to be eligible for the dream act closely.

          • John Bowman says:

            According to the 14th Amendment, an American is someone born or naturalized in the USA, and subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof. Maybe you don’t agree with that pesky Constitution paper thing.

            Yes, the USA is a melting pot – of legal immigrants.

            How about the thousands of Americans who graduate from College and have to move to China to get a job, a country they know nothing of? And their parents didn’t break any laws!! Why are they being “punished”?

            I have read the Dream Act requirement closely. All you need to do is pass the GED test (doesn’t have to be in English), claim to have entered the country before age 16, claim to have attended two years at Juan’s fake welding trade school, pay the fee, and you get a green card. Oh, and government paid workers will help you with the paperwork.

    • kyledeb says:

      Hard Worker, the truth of our messed up immigration system is that there is virtually no way for someone like Isabel to gain legal status. That’s why we need to pass the DREAM Act so that there is a way for her gain legal status.

    • John Bowman says:

      I agree Hard Worker, I know many illegals who have gone home and returned as legal students.

      Oh the “Dreamers” will whine about the 10 year re-entry bar, but immigration judges routinely waive that or non-felons if they agree to self deport.

      • Lisa says:

        To John Bowman:

        The waiving of the 10 year re-entry bar is dependent upon many things, one of which being how long you’ve been undocumented. Of the instances of the bar being waived, how many are not?

        For someone to voice their distress at being deported into a foreign land because that is where their parents hail from, ripped from the only life they’ve known and loved and their quality of life guaranteed to be diminished significantly can hardly be categorized as a “whine”.

        It is clear you lack empathy for these people’s plights because of your sense of entitlement. You are very fortunate and have taken that for granted.

        Refusing to endorse these people’s opportunity to stay because they may take jobs from Americans is the very mentality that made it deadly or made life hell for original immigrants. It’s a mindset born of fear and ignorance. Scores of people enter the US on work visas every year to fill high paying positions, they send thier money home and eventually leave.

        Until the US can implement a fair and comprehensive immigration system I see the DREAM act as being a win/win situation for all. These are productive, achievement oriented additions (which is good for our economy) to our society and it removes hundreds of thousands of immigration cases from our judicial system that is costing tax payers millions of dollars.

      • Rachel says:

        Whoaaa John Bowman — wow, where did you hear about such generous immigration judges — and what about the thousands of cases in backlog which won’t have their day in court until who knows when?

        • John Bowman says:

          Umm, a few illegal aliens I knew personally told me.

          I agree the backlogs are a problem, so why not just ask Congress to pass a law waiving the 10 year ban for illegal aliens brought here as minors, I am sure that would pass in a flash with support from both parties.

        • uniteas1 says:

          You think these people do not know about clogging our judicial systems with all this mess? They are catered to and coached by groups like LaRaza and MALDEF and supported or defended by people like the ACLU and SPLC.

          This is all generated to for one reason and that is to PUSH another AMNESTY through our Congress,which would cost more then having these people exit the country.

          I FOR ONE ,have NO PROBLEM if they want to work here,then do so ,but do it legally as they have been doing. It is these past years that they all seem to be breaking the law of immigration and allowing their visas to expire.

    • Rachel says:

      Hard worker, do you realize that after dutifully submitting paperswork for documentation it can take 5, 10, 15, 20 years to receive it? Did you know there’s an untenable backlog — and has been for years and years — at USIC (or INS as it was previously named. It’s so, so sad and wrong that Dobbs and Beck and their ilk have had access to the airwaves and reputable information sources have not and so the public, which I do believe is essentially fairminded, can’t sort the chaff from the grain.

      • John Bowman says:

        No, it doesn’t take 5 to 20 years for a student visa. It does take that long for some green cards, because of all the illegal aliens jammed into the legal immigration system by past amnesties, see the data at Immigrant Rights Foundation.

        Another amnesty like you support would only further increase the waiting times, if you really wanted to decrease the waiting times you would join the Immigrant Rights Foundation and lobby to decrease the legal immigrant waiting times, then return to your country of origin and apply to enter legally.

      • HardWorker says:

        The point is still valid. I do not know any country where arrogantly parading your lack of citizenship status gets you any respect, paperwork done, or gets an individual any further along in their “commitment” to working hard or being a citizen. Just because one does not like the rules, does not mean an individual has the right to ask for special privileges– and she has said on numerous occasions she is “more of a citizen” than many of the “white” citizens she knows. I find this incredibly insulting, and she has shown that her arrogance means more to her than real citizenship.

  3. Jay says:

    Rule of law? Law is important but there are moral and immoral laws. I guess African slaves should have listened to the Fugitive Act as well instead of breaking those laws and protest. I really don’t get it when people always argue the law is the law but they don’t want to review if that law is moral or not.

    She came here as a kid. If you want to punish someone, punish her parents (even though i dont endorse that either). Let her contribute to this country, whether it is paying taxes, or even a small fine (despite not being of her fault).

    You can complain about taxpayer money but if your idea is to deport them all back, then that’s going to cost even more money. Deporting 12 million isn’t a cheap thing. Many real criminals are often given a 2nd chance, why can’t these “criminals” be given a 2nd chance to?

  4. Randall See says:

    As a free market conservative I find McDonnell’s remarks on the economics of letting people like Ms. Castillo stay to be remarkably ignorant. He falls into the the ‘lump of labor’ fallacy that the number of jobs is fixed and that new workers only ‘take’ jobs and do not create them.

    • John Bowman says:

      Sure Randall,
      The Chinese are creating millions of new jobs – at $1 per hour. That is how “new workers” create “new jobs”.

  5. Bazrik says:

    Refreshing perspective from a self-proclaimed conservative. Thanks Randy.

  6. Flavia says:

    John Bowman:

    California does not provide any kind of financial aid to undocumented immigrants attending higher education. They have to pay full tuition with no breaks. One third of all tuition money paid in California goes toward financial aid, and they pay full price with no access to that pot. If you’re going to make claims, cite your sources.

    • John Bowman says:

      Google California AB 540, you will see you are wrong, illegal aliens who have lived in California for at least three years get IN-STATE TUITION at public colleges, this is a giant tuition break.

  7. MF says:

    John Bowman,

    You are wrong.

  8. John B.,

    You are totally wrong on the economics of this. Immigrants in general, legal or illegal, are not net drains on the economy. They are net pluses, although I will grant that some groups here are hurt. Employment in this country is not a zero sum game where an immigrant takes away a job from a non-immigrant. The immgrants generate more demand for goods that creates more jobs. Also, the more immigrants, the better off the future finances of our social security and medicare systems. You have been taken in by loud-mouthed propagandists who are lying.

    Frankly, the DREAM Act would undo something that is seriously immoral. The governor showed a moral failure in his reply to Ms. Castillo.

    • John Bowman says:

      Sorry I don’t live in your alternate reality, where “net pluses” are negative.

      If “immigrants” generate so much consumer demand and pay so much in taxes, why is real unemployment at 20% and government budget deficits at $2 trillion a year?

      It’s because you overlook the four children the average illegal alien has, who each cost taxpayers an average $20,000 per year for education, health care, food stamps, the list goes on. Do you really think their parents are paying $80,000 a year in taxes?

      Even pro-immigrant economists admit the above point.

      What is immoral is allowing foreign criminals to reside in the USA, taking public benefits from American citizens, and taking the place of American workers and the millions of legal immigrants forced to wait overseas for years and decades.

    • John Bowman says:

      Also the Dream act would benefit 30 Latin Americans for every Asian, African, or European who benefited, it highly discriminates based on race and national origin.

      Why do you feel this extremely racist immigration bias is moral?

    • Delataire says:

      There is a simple solution. Remove the incentives for people to use illegal alien labor and conducting business with them. Pass a law stating

      Any person employing an illegal alien, renting any property to an illegal alien, buying or selling any good or service with an illegal alien will be fined 1000$ per illegal alien for the first offence, 10,000$ for second offence, and forfeiture of all properites and assets for the third offence.

      12-20 million illegal aliens would go home.

    • uniteas1 says:

      RIGHT! So where are ALL OF YOUR JOBS THEN? WE have an estimated 12 to 20 million illegals in this country. The job losses continue to rise!

      Our problem in America is that our jobs are being funneled to cheap labor forces which are either in Mexico or in China and others given to the illegal invaders that are here in our own country now.

      Look up what other countries do about illegal invaders. We ARE A HAVEN for these people. Time to shut off the spigot for they get more then many Americans and that includes our military personel.

  9. Alexandra says:

    I agree the DREAM Act should be passed those kid did nothing wrong their parents did. Even if they wanted to stay in their country they were minor and had to go with their parents. Their are alot of American citizens that don`t even want to study and here u have so many talented students that love this country and want it to progress and their are not allowed that chance. Japan is such a growing economic country because anyone can go with their passport and open a store something that here takes such a long time. Having those students would help the US economy greatly

    • John Bowman says:


      Why should illegal alien students whose parents broke the law get a giant reward (in-state tuition, guaranteed green card) over legal immigrant students whose parents obeyed the law?

      Why should Latin Americans receive a 30 to 1 immigration advantage over Asian, Africans, and Europeans? Do you think Latinos are a fifth superior “Cosmic” race created from the older four races?

      The Dream act only promotes law breaking and racism, I guess that’s why you support it.

      Almost everything you write is a lie, only the part about having to go with their parents is true, for that blame the parents.

      Evil prospers through lies, what evil are you promoting?

  10. John B.,

    We all know that part of the current hysteria and misrepresenting of facts about immigration is driven by there being a bad recession. However, net immigration, including illegal, has been down recently (mostly because of the recession actually). We had higher immigration when the economy was booming back in the 90s. So, sorry, you are simply dead wrong about them having doodley squat to do with either the recession, the current unemployment rate, or the deficit, just plain dead wrong.

    When those kids grow up, they will work and pay taxes and support you in your retirement by paying social security taxes, especially if they are made legal.

    Your worrying about who exactly is immigrating harks back to the national quotas of the 1924 Immigration Restriction Law, whose most fervent supporter was the KKK. Enjoy the company.

    • John Bowman says:

      Wrong again, legal immigration is going as strong as ever, only illegal immigration is down due to both enforcement and the recession. Why do you combine legal immigration and illegal migration, they are 180 degree opposite activities with totally opposite results?

      You should know I have married, adopted, and employ immigrants (the real, legal ones), none of them are European (neither am I) and I am a big immigration supporter. I am also anti-illegal alien, as are all of the real immigrants I know. Like one of them, Jean Baptiste Truong says: “Illegal aliens are not immigrants, they are foreign intruders”.

      So can you answer why should illegal alien students whose parents broke the law get a giant reward (in-state tuition, guaranteed green card) over legal immigrant students whose parents obeyed the law?

      Why should Latin Americans receive a 30 to 1 immigration advantage over Asian, Africans, and Europeans? Do you think Latinos are a fifth superior “Cosmic” race created from the older four races? Do you enjoy their racist company?

    • John Bowman says:

      So you actually think illegal aliens, who were given a high percentage of the sub prime and “liar loans”, who have an average of four high public benefit consuming children, and pay almost no income taxes, had absolutely nothing to do with the recession?

      Hey I have this great new business idea I want to sell you, it’s called turning Mercury into Gold.

    • uniteas1 says:

      You people all want to address this problem by resorting to name calling all those that want our laws enforced and borders secured. So if all of us disagree on matters we MUST BE KKK,rednecks,hillbillies,or zenophobic or even nativists.

      I have been against this ILLEGAL INVASION long before the economy went into the crapper. And so have many millions of others. It is you and the other pro-illegal supporters that bring that into light as an excuse!

      Looks like all my other comments have been taken off of here so I would say you and this newspaper are all ONE SIDED journalists and activists.

      Get out and read some real news on what is happening in this country.

      At least the people fighting against this onslaught ARE ACTUALLY WATCHING out for these illegals. It is the press, employers,government officials, and pro-illegal acitivists groups that USE THESE PEOPLE for cheap labor,lower safety standards and are discarded later.

      This government looks at them as future voters to make their party stronger.

      These people come here and then demand things and this country gives it to them. They WOULD NEVER come close to getting anything like that in their own countries,but yet they yell for more and show no respect for what this country HAS DONE FOR THEM. They are a money pit.

    • uniteas1 says:

      “When those kids grow up, they will work and pay taxes and support you in your retirement by paying social security taxes, especially if they are made legal.”

      In other words “use them” as politicians and city officials would like to do. It is all ABOUT MONEY! Don’t worry if you breal the laws,just pay me…

      And yes we did have some higher numbers of illegals coming into the country and yes the numbers of some leaving have gone up. BUT, not as many as that are still here and taxpayers ARE PAYING for many things they use.

      They have anchor babies and can collect WIC,and funds for housing,free lunches in schools,education,heating and electricity,charities,food banks (which if you watch the news many of these organizations are running low due to the ever increasing numbers using them)

      You think for a minute these same people breaking laws are actually going to PAY BACK TAXES AND SUCH? WAKE UP!

  11. Chris says:

    What is the actual benefit of not passing the Dream Act? It doesn’t resolve anything to not pass it. Opponents talk about how these individuals should be turned away and deported back to their own country where they can make things better there. WTF are you talking about? There is not a line somewhere full of the hundreds of thousands of people eligible for the Dream Act waiting to become citizens. There’s no guestbook they all signed with their addresses and information. Unless they break the law and are exposed, none of them are going to be caught. Some will have children anyway and continue to live here illegally and just try to get by. Some will commit crimes and acts of violence and join gangs because they can’t get jobs. They will continue to engage in illegal activity such as fake identities, etc. They will still work illegally because they have to make money. No more than a small percentage will return to their countries. For most of them, it wouldn’t be any different from sending an American citizen over to these countries. These kids have so much potential. And I’m not talking that they all will become doctors and engineers, etc. But they have the potential to be normal, middle class citizens that contribute something good to society and America. Not passing the Dream Act will force these people to continue bringing down our neighborhoods and our country. America got themselves into this mess by not properly securing the border. This is a great solution to the problem.

  12. John Bowman says:

    Arizona SB 1070. 22 more states are working to pass similar legislation. You actually think they will never be caught?

    Yes, properly securing the border plus the interior will be a great solution to the problem.

  13. JGFitzgerald says:

    JB has posted half of the comments on this thread. He tells us, among other things, that undocumented immigrants caused the recession. How? Did they buy Morgan Stanley? He cites no sources. Where do these facts come from? How do people just *know* these things, automatically, apparently from nowhere? Maybe we should all watch Beck for the same reason one reads the Daily News-Record: not to find out what happens, but to find out what our neighbors think is true.

    • John Bowman says:

      I have to keep posting because people like you don’t seem to fully read or comprehend my posts. I didn’t say illegal aliens were fully responsible for the recession, a lot of greedy banksters and politicans were also responsible, but illegal aliens were a factor, not as Barkley claims they have absolutely nothing to do with the recession, high unemployment, or the deficit.

      What caused the recession?
      Banks overleveraged in a real estate bubble. Do you agree?
      What caused the bubble? No doc, no down sub prime home loans. Do you agree?
      Have you heard of the Community Reinvestment Act that the government used to pressure banks to make these loans? I agree it didn’t take much pressure, but there was pressure.
      Who supported this Act, the government pressure, and the sub prime, no doc, no down loans?
      Who lobbied to allow illegal aliens to get home loans with basically fake documents (besides housing contractors)?
      Does the name National Council of La Raza ring a bell? It’s all there if you bother to do the research.

      You see I live in California, ground zero of the illegal alien invasion, home market meltdown, high unemployment, and perpetually broke governments.
      It’s pretty easy to see the connection between all these factors here.

      I don’t have a TV so never watch Beck or Fox, don’t read newspapers either. I think all you should watch less TV also because they are just feeding you a load of propoganda.

      Instead go talk to unemployed and homeless Americans. Ask what they think. Talk to legal immigrants who spent years and thousands of dollars to get their green cards, see what they think.

      • John says:

        John Bowman,

        It’s extremely sad to see you with all the comments on here, I wonder why? Anyway a lot of your post seem to be out of anger towards hispanics. You make it seem as the 30-1 ratio is racist? Are you that ignorant? Its a 30-1 ratio, because of pure numbers. Not, because one race is superior to the other. Back in the 1800’s people like you would be the ones supportting slavery till death. Maybe its time you move from California to Alabama.

        • John Bowman says:

          So John,
          If the Virginia government only allowed 1 black, or 1 Asian, or 1 Hispanic American into college for every group of 30 white Americans addmitted, you would be OK with that since “it’s only numbers”?

          The US government admitting 30 Latino “immigrants” for every Asian, African, or European “immigrant” they allow in is exactly the same as the above example, except one pair of races are switched.

          Or maybe you just don’t think there is any difference between brown skin foreigners, to you they are all one and the same, it doesn’t matter where they come from so it’s OK if most come from one small area of the world.

      • John, do you even realize where Harrisonburg is on a map? If you live in California, why are you posting on a very specific Virginia community news forum like this?

        This is a website for people who live in the Shenandoah Valley, not for West Coasters. Aren’t there any websites in California for you to comment on?

        • John Bowman says:

          Yes I know where Harrisonburg is, I rode throught it on a cross country bike race.

          I am posting here because illegal immigration has a large negative impact on all Americans across the the nation, you might not be feeling it yet like we do in California but it’s coming to you also if nothing is changed.

          I tried posting some links to the large negative impact illegal immigration has but the mods didn’t allow it, I guess they want to keep you in the dark until it’s too late.

          • Tim says:

            I personally believe, that U.S. Americans,
            are unable to do so,
            because uh,
            some, people out there, in our nation don’t have jobs.
            and uh…
            I believe that our immigration like such as in China,
            and the Mexico,
            everywhere like such as…
            and, I believe they should uh,
            our immigration over here,
            in the U.S. should help the U.S.
            or should help China,
            and should help the Mexico and African countries so we will be able to build up our future,
            for us.

      • Scott says:

        I second that. In the past, this online community has welcomed people commenting from other areas, but they generally had something worthwhile to bring to the conversation. While it is good for us all to hear multiple perspectives, you have provided nothing but baseless “facts” and vitriol. You seem to be little more than a troll, John Bowman. Please, for all of our sakes, go back under your bridge.

    • uniteas1 says:

      Why would you or anyone on here need to know the sources of information? Looks like you do not read them anyway! Appears you only know what your neighbors may spew.

  14. David Miller says:

    They took our jobs! Straight out of South Park. You made my morning.

  15. David Miller says:

    I want numbers and sources to even stand a chance of being convinced of any argument where you blame one vast group of people for anything. I think you’ll find most people in similar mindsets. I’ll provide an example where numbers can be helpful in making an argument. Pretend I wanted to backup your arguments and somehow found the following numbers in say The Washington Times

    Undocumented Workers Mortgage Fraud Perpetrators 1,197 (or maybe a million?!)

    Undocumented Workers hired by publicly held corporations 5,000,000

    Undocumented Workers La Raza Members secretly plotting to overthrow Caucasian “culture” 5,000,000

    Undocumented Workers on Welfare 10,000,000,000

    Devastation Undocumented Workers cause to The United States of America……….. Everything!

    Being disappointed in society members that are scapegoating undocumented humans, priceless.

    (btw, your argument will work better if you use real numbers and less animosity towards your audience)

    • seth says:

      if we’re talking about numbers, i’d like to see a serious speculative comparison of how many individuals the dream act would put in the military vs. how many it would put in higher ed. i don’t really have a problem with it, but if it turns out to be more of a military conscription kind of thing than a boost to opportunities for higher ed, all you feel good puppy lovers are going to have to own that.

      • JGFitzgerald says:

        “feel good puppy lovers”?

      • David Miller says:

        Or just own not exporting our educated work force, that’s a good start

      • Dave Briggman says:

        Being in the military general requires a national agency clearance, which I wouldn’t be at all surprise if this administration would give to illegal aliens.

        • David Miller says:

          Those selfish people, they want work in a prosperous and safe land and raise their children. They want to be normal and get their education and serve the country they call their own. The nerve of these people, why should we trust them, I mean that Castillo lady didn’t come here till she was 6, that’s a sleeper cell if I ever saw one ;)

          • Dave Briggman says:

            EVERYBODY entering the military is required to, at a minimum, go through a national agency check…of course, there’s probably only one or two of us who read this blog who have ever served within the military, so you people can’t be expected to understand things such as national security.

            Nobody’s saying Ms. Castillo represents a threat to national security, but she’s 18 now, and fully old enough to know what the current and former legal process was for her to have entered the United States…she should be making an affirmative toward using that process…but I didn’t hear her say that she was the other night.

          • David Miller says:

            there’s probably only one or two of us who read this blog who have ever served within the military, so you people can’t be expected to understand things such as national security.” How can I respond to someone who refuses to accept any legitimacy to my opinion.

        • uniteas1 says:

          “The federal government cannot petition on behalf of an illegal immigrant so that they can obtain legal status and be able to enlist in the military. In order for an immigrant to join the United States military, they must first go through the immigration process of the USCIS (previously known as the INS) and then and then begin the enlisting process. Another requirement is that the Green Card and/or visa if the immigrant desiring to join the military must be valid for the entire period of their enlistment.”

  16. Daivd says:

    Hi. I came to US as a kid with E2 visa I think. My family got greencards but I didn’t because my parents made a mistake. Now I go to university of my state and I’m trying to go to dental school. However, I need to fix my immigration status and Dream Act is good way to fix my status otherwise I should do something else.

    I personally feel very uncomfortable being bad side of the law, which, in my life time I never did. I was good in Korea but this happened and wow. I can’t believe I’m illegally here. I wish my parents didn’t bring me here first time. Then my family would be in Korea and I’d be doing “normal” things in Korea. I could have got 3000~5000 dollars in Korea. Here? I can’t get a real job.

    I wish my parents didn’t brinb me here but I forgave them. Now, as an adult, I’m trying to be responsible. I guess passing Dream Act should be agreed upon all Americans because it is their country. However, one reason I want to stay here is not because opportunies here (It is hypotherical, It makes less than 1% difference in my life) but because I feel like I adapted American life style. Unlike most of Dreamers, I came late in US (when I was 15). Still, I feel like I’m American because now I think, eat, live, and feel like them. I just had to adopt becasue that was a right thing to do. Now I’m afraid to go back Korea because it is hard to adopt to Korean lifestyle again. (It’s not kidding I’ve heard others suffering from it)

    Honesty, I can’t imagine young kids who came here and call it home going back to their parents country because Dream Act didn’t pass.

    It just makes no sense and I guess many things in this world make no sense like when this earth produce enough food some kids die for lack of food.

    I believe America, as a #1 country in the world, have great laws which make great senses. I hope they would share it with “Americans” whose parents missed paperworks. I know many latino kids who are “American”.

    I think it makes no sense to not pass Dream Act. However, I respect that Dream Act should only be passed upon majories of Americans with all facts known.

  17. Daniel says:

    It’s actually very simple. Illegal immigrants have no civil rights in America. It’s not hard to understand. When America starts granting civil rights to un-documented, unwelcome, illegal immigrants, we’re going to see a whole new America.

    I would vote to pass the Dream Act. BUT ONLY AFTER the Fair Tax was passed. The Fair Tax would, more or less, pull the welcome mat out from underneath the illegal immigrants. It does not take away the ability to come to America, but it takes away the benefits America currently offers to immigrants here for the wrong reasons.

    Immigration is a problem. That’s a fact. Processes need to be put in place to control immigration prior to automatically granting citizenship to illegals.

    I feel bad for Miss Castillo. I really do. But she’s an adult now, and no one said the real world was easy.

  18. Bowman,

    Oh, so you are somebody from California. Yes, the mods should shut you down. You continue to spout non-facts or else make assertions based on your supposed own experience that, frankly, I do not buy for two seconds. Your effort to blame the recession on the CRA is a joke. Not remotely a factor. Has been in place since 1977. Why was it causing a recession now? Go surf a little and try to get over your obsessions, or else go bother some other local news blog somewhere else in the country. What you are “adding” to the discussion is just garbage.

  19. Dave Briggman says:

    I’m a little stunned that Ms. Castillo wants the DREAM ACT passed so that other illegals, like her, could attend college in Virginia.

    I believe I heard Ms. Castillo tell the Governor that she graduated from EMU — a university that apparently admits illegals but won’t let the military have access to campus — in 3.5 years…

    Of course, I could have just been dozing during the Governor’s appearance so, who knows?

  20. Joe says:

    Mr. Bowman, thanks for providing us with your insight and important information.

    Your facts have been helpful. I’m sorry my fellow Harrisonburg citizens didn’t like hearing facts and were rude to you.

  21. Brooke says:

    Are you denying that there’s racially motivated crimes by whites against blacks and Latinos as well? There are racists among every people group. The problem isn’t Latino racism. It’s racism. The problem isn’t Latino racially motivated crime, the problem is racially motivated crime. Stop fear mongering and start being part of a real, proactive solutions, instead of trying to get people to fear Latinos.

    • John Bowman says:

      Just because we do have some racially motivated crimes by Americans in the USA, you think it’s OK to let in millions of criminal foreigners so we can have even more racially motivated murders? You think we don’t have enough racially motivated murders already, we need to increase them by letting in more murdering racist foreigners?

    • John Bowman says:

      I am not talking about “Latino racially motivated crime”, I am talking about illegal alien racially motivated crime, most of which is perpetrated by Latin Americans since they comprise over 80% of illegal aliens. I am not talking about Americans of Latin origin, notice the difference? Or maybe you think all Latinos are the same, no matter their nationality?

      • Bowman,

        What a worthless liar you are. Immingrants both illegal and legal have lower crime rates than natives.

        Oh, and your claim of “racism” because Hispanics would particularly benefit from the DREAM Act is only the sign of your own anti-Hispanic prejudice. Just which detergent do you favor for your white sheets?

        Oh, I once new a man who had your same man. He was a decent human. Too bad you are polluting the name.

        • MB Green says:

          Isn’t there a rule here about name calling? This is starting to become as bad as the DNR once was. We need a “report post” option.

          • Brooke says:

            MB – Brent already addressed Barkley’s post further up. :-)

          • David Miller says:

            its confusing with the comments, this thread is unnavigable to me

          • David Miller says:

            sorry, the reply function that is

          • Joe says:


          • And I have already apologized to the readers, above somewhere.

          • Lowell Fulk says:

            If what Barkley wrote was offensive, someone needs to either stop posting nonsense and half truths, or toughen up. When someone writes something which is not true, how must they be addressed in order that tender sensibilities not be bruised while at the same time pointing out that purposeful untruth has been projected and offered up as a point with which to persuade an audience?

          • Brooke says:

            Argh – my last post was *supposed* to be a reply to Lowell, and at the very least should have been at the bottom. I wasn’t replying to anything up top! Anyway, here goes in the right place, *hopefully*…

            As disinclined as I am to defend Mr. Bowman (and if you google his name and “illegal immigration” you’ll see he’s been quite busy on the internet) and his ilk, even so, you must admit there is a difference between calling someone out on a lie, and calling them a “worthless liar.” One is pointing out the outright fallacy of their argument, and the other is a personal attack. It’s a fine line, and one I’ve had trouble navigating myself from time to time, but a line, to be sure.

          • Joe says:

            what was posted that wasn’t true? All i have seen is some name calling and a guy get banned…..what is untrue that he posted? and can you provide some evidence like Mr. Bowman did to support your claim?

          • Daniel says:

            Joe, it’s called getting “butt hurt”. The guy did not have the same view point as the owner/moderator of this site. So he get’s banned. Easy. Done. Relate that how ever you wish to our government.

          • Scott says:

            Daniel, remember when you said the same thing yesterday? Remember my response to you? I had assumed you didn’t reply because, well, what I said was true. Let me repeat verbatim (for the last time because this is getting rather old). You (and Joe) continue to remain willfully ignorant about why Mr. Bowman was singled out as being unwelcome here, which makes it very difficult to take any of your other points very seriously. I think any reasonable person on this site, no matter their political ideology, would agree with me on this.

          • Daniel says:

            I did not reply because I think your posts are ignorant. Nothing more, nothing less.

          • Scott says:

            Well in that case, I can’t help but find your restraint very admirable.

          • Bazrik says:

            Yeah! It’s a conspiracy! Fight “the man”! …which is Get real, please…

    • Delataire says:

      Brooke, you should investigate The Color of Crime.

  22. Joe says:

    why doesn’t our Govt enforce the laws that are currently on the books?

    • Daniel says:

      It would cost too much money. Ever hear the phrase “herding cats”. That’s what it would look like. The Tax Payers would spend money over-and-over deporting the same people dozens of times. And who’s to even say their home Countries would even let the bus/plane in to make the drop?

      It’s easier to take away their free benefits and allow them to leave on their own.

      • uniteas1 says:

        Exactly…self deportation….It costs money to deport BUT it COSTS MORE to give an amnesty..besides we have had 5 amnesties already and that is one reason they KEEP COMING!It does not solve anything to REWARD these criminals!

  23. William Knorpp says:

    Mr. Bowman,

    It’s possible to be very concerned about the problem of illegal immigration (I am), to advocate some fairly strong action to address the problem (I do), and to be frustrated with a certain touchy-feely type of liberal attitude to the problem (I’m with you there, too) without opposing the DREAM act.

    Even if one has a fairly tough-minded attitude about the illegal immigration problem, it seems to me that one ought to understand that minor children of illegal immigrants almost never have any say in coming to the U.S. These children no more chose to live here than you or I did–it was a consequence of decisions by their parents. One doesn’t have to be a “puppy-hugger” to acknowledge that we ought not to punish people for things they had no control over. Many people who were brought to this country as minors are every bit as connected to this country as you and I, and it would be draconian to turn a blind eye to their plight.

    Although liberals often err on the side of bleeding-heartedness, conservatives often err on the side of cold-heartedness; I think both sides should keep their characteristic failings in mind when thinking about such issues.

    • John Bowman says:

      #1. As illegal alien student Rachel herself says above, it’s not just for college graduates brought here as minors, it’s an amnesty “down payment” to later include “their parents and aunts and uncles and cousins and grandparents and great-grandparents and neighbors”

      #2. Maybe you missed the You tube video which shows their “connection to the country”:

      US Flag desecration – Montbello High School, Maywood P.O.

      #3. I personally know many legal immigrants whose high achieving friends and relatives overseas, and thus have more connection to the USA than the students shown above, have been turned down for US student visas. Why should adult foreigners who break the law and have little or no respect for the USA be given the million dollar reward of in-state tuition and a green card, while foreigners who do respect the USA and our laws get absolutely nothing?

      #4. You overlook that 30 to 1 Dream Act bias in favor of Latin Americans over Asian, Africans, and Europeans, why do you support this immigration racism?

      #5. Explain how having to live with your law abiding neighbors in your country of origin, who did not receive a first rate US primary education and health care as a minor, nor learned English and made contacts in the USA, is “PUNISHMENT”?

      You need to fully answer these five points which are all ramifications of the Dream Act.

      • William Knorpp says:


        1. I can’t find this claim by Rachel–am I just overlooking it? And I can’t find such provisions in the DREAM act via googling. I don’t see how DREAMA can be expanded in that way.

        2. We can’t infer attitudes about the majority of such folks from the actions of that small group–I’m sure you’d agree with that.

        3. Good question, but I take it that the answer is implicit in what I already wrote: they are in special circumstances, having been brought here against their will as children, and/or having grown up as Americans. One reason I support the act is that it only applies to people between (roughly) ages 12 and 35 at the time the bill was passed–so it doesn’t give further incentives for further illegal immigration. This is an ad hoc patch on a specific kind of problem–which is just what’s needed here.

        4. See 3. The special circumstances of the kids already here matter, and they happen to be mostly Hispanic.

        5. Well, again, when it’s kids we’re talking about, they may not know anyone in their country of origin–they’ve grown up American just like you and I did. They’d often be as out-of-water as you or I would be if plopped down in, say, Finland or whatever.

        I’m not 100% sold on DREAMA…but it just seems down right mean and unnecessary to force a poor, innocent kid who feels as American as you or me to go back to a country that is foreign to him.

        Again, we can favor strong action on illegal immigration without losing our souls in the process. We can be stalwart in our insistence on the right of the nation to control who enters without being cruel to innocents caught up in the affairs of adults.

        • HardWorker says:

          re #4: get the numbers on how many children in the Valley are of Eastern European background and places other than Mexico, you will be surprised. Also, to make a law that biases one country of origin due to a momentary, regionally volatile spike in numbers is not a law that will stand the test of time.

          • William Knorpp says:

            If there are more illegals from E. Europe in a place, doesn’t that just mean that that would be the group to potentially benefit most in that place?

            This law isn’t intended to stand the test of time. It’s a one-off fix for the problem we currently face. And since Hispanic illegals are something like 3/4 of the illegals in the U.S., they’ll benefit most.

            I do agree with the general sentiment of your point. This problem should never have been allowed to grow out of proportion in this way, and put us in a position in which we’d need this kind of fix.

  24. Joe says:

    please…that’s a lame excuse. it would cost to much money? Since the Fed can’t handle it, cut ICE, save taxpayer money, and let the states do it.

  25. Chris F-B says:

    It’s interesting how far some will go to hide their lack of empathy behind the letter of law.

    • John Bowman says:

      I billion foreigners want to live in the USA.

      I guess you are saying if we don’t let them all in we are not empathetic?

  26. Joe says:

    empathy for who?

  27. Ok, John Bowman.

    Enough. Go find a California website to spam with YouTube videos.

    As I said before, this is a local forum for people living in the Shenandoah Valley.

  28. Joe says:

    wow…is Mr. Bowman going to be banned because he lives in another state? or because you don’t like what he has to say?

    • Have we banned you, Joe? No, because you live here.

      This is a local news site, run by volunteer writers who live in Harrisonburg and Rockingham County, for people who live here. Friendly visitors are welcome. Outside agitators are not welcome, regardless of whether they rode through here on a bike tour once.

      I was letting it all go until John began just spamming up the thread with links to YouTube videos.

      Location is important. I don’t think most readers realize the effort that it takes to keep a local website local. Look at the comments on the DNR or WHSV. How many of those commenters are from here? Who knows. We’re making an extra effort here to keep the discussion local. I think other readers appreciate that.

      • Joe says:

        It’s your website, you can do whatever you wish. I have no problem with just keeping it local

      • Joe says:

        hey, it’s your website, you can do what you want.

      • Daniel says:

        So it’s only ok to post on this website if we agree with you? That’s dumb.

        • Scott says:

          Um, I think that is clearly not what Brent was saying. Nice straw man attempt though.

        • Daniel, it’s not about ideology.

          It’s the principle: should the discussion between Harrisonburg residents be completely dominated by someone in California?

          To reiterate: My issue with Bowman was that he had hijacked the conversation, and he’s not from here. If he had been from Harrisonburg, or if he hadn’t hijacked the conversation, we wouldn’t have had any problems.

          • Bazrik says:

            Wow Daniel – what a lame attempt to twist Brent’s words. He in no way said what you’re implying.

            And on a side note – I guess it sure is easy to tear someone up for a website like this, while they’re the doing all the work and you’re just enjoying the benefits. Next time you feel like posting a whiny complaint or cheap shot about this site – how about trying to develop and manage one yourself? See how easy it is…how nice it is to have petty critics trying to poke holes in your work after all the effort you’ve put into it.

            Brent and crew should be commended for hosting one of the best venues for actual, viable debate amongst ALL points of view. Keep up the great work guys!

          • Daniel says:

            But isn’t the DREAM ACT a National issue, and not just tied to Harrisonburg? I live in Grottoes, so is this web site not here to appeal to the likes of me since I do not live in Harrisonburg? The DREAM ACT affects me and you just the same as it would Mr. Bowman. If you did not want to hear his side of the argument you would have not opened the issue up for comment.

            However, you do want folks like Mr. Bowman to comment because that draws attention to you site. You love attention and that’s why you developed this site. If Mr.s Bowman would not have gotten involved, this thread of posts would have dies out a long time ago. That would disappoint you, though.

            I run just a few web sites with forums.

          • Scott says:

            Daniel –
            Go back and read Brent’s comment. Ok, done? Did you catch the part about this site being “run by volunteer writers who live in Harrisonburg and Rockingham County, for people who live here”? Did you catch the part about the person you are referring to not only not living in the area, but also dominating the conversation (and more specifically trying to spam with youtube videos)? Have you been visiting this site long? If not, can you go through the archives and check out all the past stories covering the entire area (not just the city) in a more extensive, inclusive way than any other local news source?

            You continue to remain willfully ignorant about why Mr. Bowman was singled out as being unwelcome here, which makes it very difficult to take any of your other points very seriously.

            Brent and everyone else involved with hburgnews – Keep up the good work!

          • Thanks, Scott and Bazrik.

  29. Cali4nia says:


    All I can say is that Mr. Bownman is a minority in California. Both our senators support the DREAM Act as well as our Universities both CAL States and UCs. To see someone waste so much time posting comments without taking into considerations the amount of sacrifice these young talented students go through to keep studying and who go hold on to the hope that someday it will all pay off is sickening.

    These undocumented students receive no form of federal aid. They are not entitled to federal aid (FAFSA) or state aid (Cal Grants). The amount of sacrifice they have to endure is monumental. If someone who was brought here and has done nothing but follow what their grade school teachers told them “go to school, stay out of trouble and get a degree” is a crime, then they are smart criminals.

    The failure of the federal government to act has motivated huge corporations like Microsoft and Pfizer to reach out to these students in the form of private scholarship. The fact is that these scholarships are not only limited to undocumented students, they’re open to any student who has the academic requirements being listed. To cry that they receive private scholarship is both cheap and stupid. When can you compare one or two scholarships to substitute the financial aid that American students receive continuously every semester every year.

    I feel sorry for Mr.Bowman. I hope he invest his time wisely and instead of bashing undocumented students, spends his time reading how America is loosing numbers in how many students major in the science fields.

    Now while not all undocumented students will major in the sciences I can personally say I have come across some very intelligent chemist, engineers and biologist who unfortunately have waited too long to fix their paperwork. How can they fix there paperwork when the system is broken and it takes around 10-15 years to fix it.

    The clear solution is the DREAM Act.

  30. Dave Briggman says:

    I think the best part of the whole “McDonnell” even was Luis Padilla getting chewed out by a JMU cop for dragging the American flag all over the ground…that was PRICELESS.

    • Emmy says:

      Does it make me a totally horrible person to say I would have liked to see that? I’m thinking probably.

  31. Joe says:

    um…how can illegals have a lower crime rate? they have a crime rate of 100%.

  32. Daniel says:

    Mr. Rosser,
    Border States do see an increase in crime rate from illegals. That’s a fact. It’s mostly drug related, but there is also a lot of kidnappings, smuggling organizations, identity theft, assault against police officers/border patrol, etc…

    5% of all illegal Hispanics live in TX, AZ, and CA. Illegal Hispanics make up 12% of the inmates in CA, and 11% in AZ. In both CA and AZ, the Hispanic population in under 7%.

  33. Joe says:

    how can illegals have a lower crime rate? their rate is 100%

  34. I don’t know how or why all these non-Valley residents got involved in this discussion, or why everything has to turn nasty when immigration comes up, but everyone needs to chill out.

    @Barkley, please refrain from name-calling and and unfounded accusations (“worthless liar,” KKK references).

    Let’s try keep it civil, folks.

    • I apologize to readers for overdoing it. I do not apologize to Bowman, who fully deserved it.

      For anyone still buying into the immigrants cause crime story, see . There are other sources that tell the same story, which the title summarizes, this based on FBI data. Bottom line is that cities with the highest rates of immigration have had the sharpest declines in crime, including violent crime.

      • Joe says:

        don’t confuse immigration with illegal aliens.

        illegal aliens have a crime rate of 100%

        • Brooke says:

          Well, by your logic, sir, if you’ve ever sped, made a rolling stop at a stop sign, or jay walked, your crime rate is also 100%.

          • William Knorpp says:

            Joe’s right. The data on immigrants per se is irrelevant. The question is: what’s the crime rate among *illegal* immigrants.

          • Joe says:

            i agree, but not every Ameican has done that, so the crime rate for any other group isn’t 100%….like illegal aliens.

            and fyi…immigrants are people that are Americans. Illegal aliens aren’t American…therefore they aren’t immigrants.

      • William Knorpp says:


        Your link is 404.

        • Sorry about that. Can get it if you google “immigrants in cities falling crime rates” 4th hit down, and the url is what I posted. Why it does not link directly I do not know. But there are others, same data, although a lot of the hits are about Arizona specifically, where the crime rates have been falling also, despite all the hysterical ranting and raving that we have been hearing about.

          Yes, one can make the claim that the illegal immigrants have a higher crime rate because they broke the immigration law, but that is not what most people are thinking about when they think about this issue.

      • Delataire says:

        Department of Homeland Security reports:

        * 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
        * 83% of warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens.

        * 86% of warrants for murder in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens.

        * 75% of those on the most wanted list in Los Angeles, Phoenix and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.

        * 24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

        * 40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

        * 48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

        * 29% (630,000) convicted illegal alien felons fill our state and federal prisons at a cost of $1.6 billion annually

        * 53% plus of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.

        * 50% plus of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border.

        * 71% plus of all apprehended cars stolen in 2005 in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California were stolen by Illegal aliens or “transport coyotes”.

        * 47% of cited/stopped drivers in California have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 47%, 92% are illegal aliens.

        * 63% of cited/stopped drivers in Arizona have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 63%, 97% are illegal aliens

        * 66% of cited/stopped drivers in New Mexico have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 66% 98% are illegal aliens.

        * 380,000 plus “anchor babies” were born in the US to illegal alien parents in just one year, making 380,000 babies automatically US citizens.

        * 97.2% of all costs incurred from those births were paid by the American taxpayers.

        * 66% plus of all births in California are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers

        • William Knorpp says:

          I don’t have a position on this, but I don’t trust those figures.

          For example, items 5-7 tell us nothing; we can’t tell how many of those are there simply because they are illegal aliens–that is, how many of them are in detention centers, *not* because they committed some crime other than being here illegally. That is, we don’t know how many of them were just picked up for being IA, and how many did things like theft or assault.

          I simply don’t believe that 47% of all drivers stopped in CA have no license, no insurance AND no registration, though, of course, I’m happy to be proved wrong.

          I’m actually more concerned about the type of criminals associated with illegal immigration than the crime rates–though it’s hard to get solid figures, apparently the immigration system helps to screen out gang members; obviously, there’s no such screening for illegals.

          • Joe says:

            um….last I checked being here illegally, was a crime.

          • Jeremy Aldrich says:

            Crossing illegally is a misdemeanor crime, subject to a statute of limitations. “Being here” without proper immigration documents is not a crime.

        • Jeremy Aldrich says:

          I’m with William on this. FBI and Dept. of Homeland Security don’t collect those kinds of stats, and neither do local police departments.

          Also, according to the Dept. of Energy, 97.6% of the statistics circulated about immigration are full of crap. :-)

          • Dave Briggman says:

            Jeremy, do you actually teach?

            You’re citing the DEPT OF ENERGY for the veracity of immigration statistics?

            I’ll bet you look up the definitions of legal terms in non-legal dictionaries, too, don’t you?

            And Jeremy, every legal immigrant I’ve spoken to tells me that under federal immigration law they are REQUIRED to have their green card on their person at all times or it violates some federal statute…

            At least know you’re conceding that the illegal penetration of our borders is a federal crime…that only took you about two years to comprehend.


          • Jeremy Aldrich says:

            lol @ Dave’s response. Maybe the joke was too subtle?

            For the record, I’ve never said crossing illegally wasn’t against the law…but Mr. Nuance may not have understood what I was saying during those discussions.

            For some reason, I’m thinking about Jean Piaget’s theory of cognitive development right now…

        • Delataire,

          The vast majority of the stats here are purely false junk. In the link the source is some guy named Ben Cardoza, who claims to have gathered this stuff from the FBI and other sources, but this list is a notorious pack of phoney garbage that has been circulating in the internet for some time. Anybody believing the list is just a sucker.

          See . Hope this link works. If not, some appropriate googling can get you to this site.

  35. MB Green says:

    Why can’t these so-called DREAM children join the military, and in exchange for four years of honorable service they get their citizenship? That is how lots of natural born American citizens achieve their dreams of college education, job training, etc.

    If their religion prohibits them from serving in the military, let them have some kind of alternate service that is four years long.

    But, if this is really your country and you love this country, then prove it by serving this country.

    • Lowell Fulk says:

      Military service is included. Perhaps it would be good for folks to familiarize themselves with the Dream Act before arguing about its alleged drawbacks. And Mr. Bowman is simply wrong on many of his assertions.

    • Delataire says:

      This is already done. Anyone of any country can serve in our military for 8 years. After which they will be granted citizenship, and be allowed to bring their immediate family over.

      • seth says:

        the last time we had this discussion (yawn) someone mentioned that they’d just attended a boot camp graduation and that a number of undocumented individuals had been granted full citizenship as a result of some stipulation that expedited the process for those serving in war time (not absolutely certain on the specifics, but that was the gist of it). the commenter went on to point out that the proposals in the dream act, which (correct me if i’m wrong here)grant something short of full citizenship will actually be a step back for these people (although i’d hope that whatever statute under which they’re currently gaining citizenship would preclude the snuggly puppy military conscription act (that’s for those living in glass houses)).

      • Lowell Fulk says:

        Please provide a link?

  36. A report from the San Francisco Fed by Giovanni Peri has just been issued, “The Effect of Immigrants on U.S. Employment and Productivity,” Here is a quote from it.

    “Data show that, on net, immigrants expand the U.S. economy’s capacity, stimulate investment, and promote specialization that in the long run boosts productivity. Consistent with previous research, there is no evidence that these effects take place at the expense of jobs for workers born in the United State.”

    There is also no evidence that immigrants being illegal makes them have a substantially different effect, although there is this waste of resources spent in chasing after them, attempting to deport them, building fences to keep them out, sending all kinds of personnel to the border to keep them out, legal resources spent prosecuting them, resources spent building and running jails to hold them (we are already the most incarcerated nation on earth), and so on and so on and so on, not that you hear any of this from the people moaning and wailing and gnashing their teeth over this issue so self righteously.

    • William Knorpp says:

      Interesting if true, though, again, link is broken.

      Of course it’s permissible for a nation to regulate immigration in a reasonable way, and to enforce reasonable and just immigration laws. Exactly what those laws should be like, and whether or not there is significant harm from not enforcing them, are interesting, though different, questions.

      As I understand it, the position of many on the moderate right and towards the center of this debate, goes like this: if we ought to let more people in the country, then we should expand legal immigration quotas, but we shouldn’t be sanguine about mass circumvention of immigration laws.

      That’s a reasonable position, though it could be undermined by showing that there is no intolerable harm associated with illegal immigration. I’m certainly willing to hear such a case, but I have to admit a certain amount of *prima facie* discomfort with this kind of salutary neglect. If we need higher immigration quotas, let’s have them.

      • Joe says:

        what’s the point in having laws if you don’t enforce them? and how can from that point, argue they are reasonable.

        illegal aliens are harmful, all one has to do is look at Arizona, namely Phx…which is ranked 2 in the world for kidnapping, and not see the horror that comes from not enforcing basic immigration laws.

        • Joe,

          Repeating more drivel from the internet. Given my inability to put up direct links that work, I suggest people google “kidnapping statistics cities” and go to the link (#6 when I did it) that starts as “Politifact Texas…” It is pointed out that this claim about Phoenix and kidnapping has been widely spread, but proves to be based on nothing. There is no support for it. It looks like there are probably quite a lot of cities, mostly in Latin America, well ahead of it. Also, the kidnapping rate in Phoenix has been sharply dropping in recent years, so any outcry for some desperate need to “do something” about it is way overdone.

          • David Miller says:

            agreed, although national figures such as John McCain claimed the same “Phx…which is ranked 2 in the world for kidnapping,” it is a total falsehood. I understand how much drivel that echo chamber puts out but you owe it to yourself not to buy their lies.

        • Joe says:

          it certainly could have drop in ranking, although the number 2 ranking was very recent.

          it still is without a doubt, the number 1 city in the US…that directly is related to not enforcing immigration laws.

  37. Joe says:

    I don’t understand why you DREAM Act supporters want to give illegals more of an incentative to come here illegally? they are putting their lives at risk when they do that, and you all really don’t seem to mind.

    sad really.

    We should be looking at things that don’t give people incentatives to commit illegal acts.

    • Scott says:

      Joe, as I understand it the DREAM act is a one time deal for those currently living in this country, not an incentive. Can you provide an example of how it is an incentive? I’m also curious about what your solution would be to prevent people from putting their lives at risk to come here.

      • Joe says:

        sure it’s an incentative. most illegals risk their lives coming here for a better opportunity…that’s certainly understandable. This Act, will give people of of an incentative because it gives their children a path to citizenship.

        How do you make it a “one-time” deal? where’s the cut off? and how do you prove the person was here before the cut off?

        • Scott says:

          First of all, “incentative” isn’t a word. Not to get too nit-picky, just want to make sure we both understand what the word “incentive” actually means.

          According to the DREAM act, eligible candidates must have been present in the United States for at least five years immediately preceding enactment. So, that is how you make it a one time deal. As I understand it there would be penalties for false application statements, so it’s not as if anyone is trying to just toss certificates out at parades.

          Just one final plea to those arguing against this act… I am interested in learning about and hearing perspectives on the pros and cons of this legislation, but can we please do at least a little bit of preliminary research before making completely baseless arguments? It’s not helping your position to do otherwise.

          • Joe says:

            there are penalties for false application statements currently…how’s that working out? guess we wouldn’t need to dream act if those penalities could be enforced.

            I wouldn’t mind having the debate if you all actually thought about the consequences and the real impact, and not just what you think the law intends.

          • Scott says:

            Penalties for what application statements? I assume that you are talking about applications for citizenship and not DREAM act applications that do not yet exist. And you would be right, it’s not working. Our system is not working. I think we can all agree on that.

            “guess we wouldn’t need to dream act if those penalities could be enforced”

            By your own logic, our system is broken, which is exactly why, in my opinion, we do need the act. Also, it is very difficult to debate about the consequences and impact when you are not stating specifically what those are and how they would come about.

          • seth says:

            ‘…that is how you make it a one time deal’

            i think you may be misreading this part. here’s the text from S729:

            “(A) the alien has been physically present in the United States for a continuous period of not less than 5 years immediately preceding the date of enactment of this Act, and had not yet reached the age of 16 years at the time of initial entry”

            i may be misreading that, but as i understand it, the dream act applies to anyone who has been here at least 5 years when the law goes into effect and anyone until the end of time or the repeal of the act who has been here for at least 5 years (and meets the other criteria). not trying to pick, it just seems like people have different understandings of whether this is meant to be an ongoing or one time off kind of thing.

          • Scott says:

            You may very well be right about that. Can anyone else confirm one way or the other?

          • Lowell Fulk says:

            I’m not sure what is confusing you Seth.

            The Dream Act applies to a very specific and narrow group. Someone must have been in the country for at least five years prior to passage of the act and must have been younger than 16 when they first got here. What is so hard to understand? The “immediately preceding the date of enactment” phrase makes it finite.

          • seth says:

            lowell, it would seem that you and i read it the same way. i brought it up because i noticed that there seemed to be some differing interpretations in the thread. what’s with the tone?

          • seth says:

            sorry lowell, i read your comment quickly and thought we were seeing\saying the same thing.

            we weren’t, you’re right, i wasn’t getting it. just so i’m clear, if the dream act were to pass this year (2010), individuals would only be eligible if they’d been in the US since 05 or before?

          • seth says:

            (and scott, thanks for being civil)

          • Scott says:

            Lowell, I think Seth actually raised an important point about the ambiguity in the wording. I asked a knowledgeable friend about this and he said that as he understands it the act actually would benefit newcomers for at least five more years after enactment. If anyone else can offer a more informed take on this I would be much obliged.

          • Lowell Fulk says:


            “the act actually would benefit newcomers for at least five more years after enactment.”

            Not newcomers, but children who meet the time and age requirements at the time of passage yet haven’t finished and graduated high school or obtained their GED would also become eligible over the next several years.

          • Scott says:

            Thanks for sharing those links. That is how I initially interpreted it, but I think it is easy to see how it could be a bit confusing.

          • Lowell Fulk says:

            And confusion is one of the goals of those who purposely distort and misrepresent what the act would do.

          • seth says:

            thanks lowell

  38. Brooke says:

    As disinclined as I am to defend Mr. Bowman (and if you google his name and “illegal immigration” you’ll see he’s been quite busy on the internet) and his ilk, even so, you must admit there is a difference between calling someone out on a lie, and calling them a “worthless liar.” One is pointing out the outright fallacy of their argument, and the other is a personal attack. It’s a fine line, and one I’ve had trouble navigating myself from time to time, but a line, to be sure.

    • Lowell Fulk says:

      Hmmm… Should I apologize and refer to such individuals as “worthwhile” liars as opposed to Barkley’s wording of “worthless” liar? Fallacy and intentional misrepresentation are two different things. Either way, semantics aside, lying is what should be offensive.

      • Brooke says:

        On the last part we can most certainly agree. I’m guessing not calling names is the answer. How about, “what you are posting are lies.” No name calling involved. I’m not saying I don’t agree with the assessment that was made (;-), but at some point it’s just not productive, and things just start deteriorating. That and we sort of agree to refrain from that sort of thing (name-calling) while posting here. I know I’ve been guilty of it myself, so I’m really mostly arguing philosophically here.

        • Joe says:

          i don’t think it’s enough to say, I don’t agree. I like to see folks say, I don’t agree with your point, and your points are false and here is why…….

          Mr. Bowman’s post were quite detailed and backed up with points…at the very least those that disagree can offer counterpoints and not just name calling or “i disagree”

          • Brooke says:

            I’m talking merely about the difference between calling someone out and calling them a name. Of course when saying one disagrees it’s a good idea to say why. And I think people did do that. You’ve apparently missed quite a bit in this thread and should go back and read it again.

  39. Lowell Fulk says:

    Please point out the “evidence” that supports Mr. Bowman’s claims first, then I will deal with such assertations on a point by point basis.

  40. Jose Padilla says:

    Individuals seeking legalization through the Dream Act are illegal aliens. There is no denying that fact. Illegal immigration is a national issue that impacts every citizen of the United States, not just those living in a specific region, city, county, etc. IMHO, Bowman should have been welcome in posting his comments. Just because the majority doesn’t agree with someones ideas or opinions shouldn’t be enough to justify censorship. Just my opinion, for what it’s worth.

  41. Brooke says:

    Daniel – That is NOT why Mr. Bowman got banned, and I think you know that. You agree with Mr. Bowman’s argument, correct? Ok. That would mean according to your logic you should have been banned as well. Since you haven’t been, that probably wasn’t the reason he was banned.

    Brent is a fair guy. He doesn’t ban people for not agreeing with him. He was taken off because it became apparent that he was not from the local area, and being that this blog is by and for people in the Harrisonburg and surrounding localities. Furthermore if you Google this gentleman’s name and the phrase “illegal immigration” you see he makes a habit of going to websites all over the place and posting the same stuff. That’s almost the definition of trolling.

    Scott is absolutely right. Your continuing to post nonsense, in the view of the actual facts makes you extremely hard to take seriously.

  42. Brooke says:

    (What is UP with where it’s putting comments?! I just used the regular comment box, and it placed my last post way up in the thread!)

  43. Jose Padilla says:

    Question, why doesn’t my earlier post appear in the order that it was posted?

    “Jose Padilla says:
    September 1, 2010 at 3:23 am
    Individuals seeking legalization through the Dream Act are illegal aliens. There is no denying that fact. Illegal immigration is a national issue that impacts every citizen of the United States, not just those living in a specific region, city, county, etc. IMHO, Bowman should have been welcome in posting his comments. Just because the majority doesn’t agree with someones ideas or opinions shouldn’t be enough to justify censorship. Just my opinion, for what it’s worth.”

  44. Jose Padilla says:

    Undocumented aliens (illegal immigrants to some) are not authorized to join any branch of the military. However, green card holders can enlist and U.S. citizenship can be expedited for serving. So, the poster that stated, somehere above, that undocumented immigrants received citizenship papers at boot camp was dead wrong! Before receiving citizenship, they must first obtain a green card, and to join the military they must have a green card. I served over twenty years in the U.S. Navy and 6 of those years was spent working for a USN Recruiting Command. Personally, I do not support allowing illegal aliens in our military. Why should we give them a job with full medical and dental benefits, free housing, and meals at taxpayer expense? Rewarding illegality only leads to more of the same.

    • Scott says:

      Well, the act is also a recruitment strategy for the Pentagon, which is one reason that it has received some criticism from activists and undocumented immigrants (the Democracy Now link I shared above goes into this further). It seems that with a military stretched so thin that they have begun taking ex-cons and people with mental illnesses, this looks like a viable option to them. I am certainly not advocating it as a great strategy, but I can see the reasoning there.

  45. Jose Padilla says:

    Okay, I’ve already asked this question once but I’ll try again. Why do all of my post seem to magically appear out of sequence? This thread is really difficult to follow because the post are all out of order. For example, it’s understood that Bowman was banned, however, some of his post appear after a couple of my post that were entered after he was banned. This is really getting confusing.

    • DebSF says:

      Sometimes a post will get caught by the spam filter. When one of us checks the filter and clicks approve, it will appear. I found one of your posts there yesterday. Also, new posts go at the end of the thread, but replies to someone else go under their original post, out of chronological order.

      • Brooke says:

        Deb, I’ve used the regular comment box (in other words NOT clicking “reply” in someone’s post) and had my post which SHOULD appear at the bottom of the thread, immediately appear midway up. There’s something wonky with the comment feature.

      • Jose Padilla says:

        Thanks for the explanation DebSF – now I understand.

  46. Joe says:

    I don’t really care why Mr. Bowman was banned…it’s your site, I respect that.

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